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TravellersPoint Terms & Conditions

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21. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 11y

I don't know for sure, but I don't think a terms and conditions would hold up in court over copyright.

22. Posted by Wocca (Inactive 3745 posts) 11y

I am of the same opinion as GregW

Quoting GregW

"...I would think that legally, under the BERNE CONVENTION, that the posting member retains the copyright of whatever they post, not TP..."

Quoting Hien

"... Greg,
It's not of any convention, but rather agreeing to the Terms and Conditions that the owner of the site have set, upon using it...."

"...So, if you use the website, you've obviously agreed to the above..."

Hien,
Perhaps your simplistic view has just cast doubt on the absoluteness of TP's Terms & Conditions. It is highly unlikely that international laws would be subordinate in legality & status to TravellersPoint.

Quoting Wikipedia

The Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works , sometimes called the Berne Union or Berne Convention, adopted at Berne in 1886, first established the recognition of copyrights between sovereign nations.

The Berne Convention provided that each contracting state would recognize as copyrighted works created by nationals of other contracting states. Copyright under the Berne Convention is automatic: no registration is required, nor is the inclusion of a copyright notice. Additionally, signatories to The Berne Convention were prohibited from requiring any such registration-type formality on foreign authors that would interfere with the "enjoyment and exercise" of copyright. (Signatories are still free to impose registration or publication requirements on domestic authors or those from non-signatory nations, but in practice this is rarely if ever done.)

The Berne Convention provided for a minimum term of copyright protection of the life of the author plus fifty years, but parties were free to provide longer terms of copyright protection, as the European Union did with the 1993 Directive on harmonising the term of copyright protection. The United States followed with the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998.

The Berne Convention has been revised a few times: Berlin (1908), Rome (1928), Brussels (1948), Stockholm (1967) and Paris (1971). Since 1967, the Berne Convention has been administered by WIPO, the World Intellectual Property Organization.

Since almost all nations are members of the World Trade Organization, the TRIPs Agreement requires non-members to accept almost all of the conditions of the Berne Convention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works

There were 148 members of the WTO on 16 February 2005. These included Australia, Canada, China, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, et al.

http://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/org6_e.htm

Is it all possible that TP's Terms & Conditions may not be as valid or as absolute as earlier insisted ?

23. Posted by Wocca (Inactive 3745 posts) 11y

Quoting Sam I Am

As I find this kind of stuff pretty interesting, not to mention useful, there is what I found on this on Wikipedia. The most important aspect relating to this thread is that copyright can be transferred, and in case of posting on the forums here, that is essentially what members are doing (see terms and conditions wording). This doesn't take away anything from the laws on copyright or for example the Berne Convention and it still means that the works can't be copied by others without breaching the owners rights (hmmm, wonder where that exactly leaves quoting functions legally!!).

Over the internet, I think you'll generally find you are assigning your copyright to others when you post etc. on forums/websites where information/content sharing is common. It would be too disruptive for websites not to have this. Even creative commons websites have this, as that license pertains to the copying of the text/information from the website, after it has already been submitted/contributed by an individual.

But I'm no lawyer, let that be clear :)

Are you the legal owner representative of TP?

I believe that anything that a member writes would be protected by copyright, and that by posting it s/he gives TP the right to show it, but they wouldn't have the right to distribute by any other means without the member's permission.

24. Posted by Sam I Am (Admin 5588 posts) 11y

Hi Wocca, read my post and read the law and you'll see that the terms and conditions are in line with that. Anyone posting gives Travellerspoint the rights to that work. It's not a case of the terms and conditions vs the copyright law in any way, rather that the terms and conditions outline what you do with your copyrights when you post on the site/forum.

Same as artists signing their copyrights to music labels. They are basically assigning their work to someone else because they know in that way their content will be distributed to more people and read by more people.

Also, it should be pointed out that if one particular section of the terms and conditions isn't valid for whatever reason, the others still all hold up due to the severance clause included.

I find it interesting that this is brought up now Wocca. Perhaps you'd like to share with all the others why you brought this up after posting nearly 4000 times?

25. Posted by Sam I Am (Admin 5588 posts) 11y

Quoting Wocca

Quoting Sam I Am

As I find this kind of stuff pretty interesting, not to mention useful, there is what I found on this on Wikipedia. The most important aspect relating to this thread is that copyright can be transferred, and in case of posting on the forums here, that is essentially what members are doing (see terms and conditions wording). This doesn't take away anything from the laws on copyright or for example the Berne Convention and it still means that the works can't be copied by others without breaching the owners rights (hmmm, wonder where that exactly leaves quoting functions legally!!).

Over the internet, I think you'll generally find you are assigning your copyright to others when you post etc. on forums/websites where information/content sharing is common. It would be too disruptive for websites not to have this. Even creative commons websites have this, as that license pertains to the copying of the text/information from the website, after it has already been submitted/contributed by an individual.

But I'm no lawyer, let that be clear :)

Are you the legal owner representative of TP?

I believe that anything that a member writes would be protected by copyright, and that by posting it s/he gives TP the right to show it, but they wouldn't have the right to distribute by any other means without the member's permission.

Travellerspoint is owned by a Ltd. which is part owned by me.

You're right in your assumption which is why everytime you use the site/post something you give us that permission... (see Hiens post and the T&C's for the exact wording).

26. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 11y

Quoting Sam I Am

I find it interesting that this is brought up now Wocca. Perhaps you'd like to share with all the others why you brought this up after posting nearly 4000 times?

That's the same question I had Sam. Why is this so important to Wocca? Does anyone really consider anything that has been posted to be art, or even worthy of copyright protection? With no offense intended to all the members of TP, I have yet to come across a posting that was so profound that it would be considered one's personal property. I was under the assumption that this was a "discussion" type website, where people could exchange views, opinions, and experiences, as well as chat and be silly in Off Topic.

What does it really matter? Isn't life just a bit too short to be quibbling over something so trivial?

In the immortal words of my Mother, "Play nice with others or get off the playground."

27. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 11y

Quoting Sam I Am

Quoting Wocca

Quoting Sam I Am

As I find this kind of stuff pretty interesting, not to mention useful, there is what I found on this on Wikipedia. The most important aspect relating to this thread is that copyright can be transferred, and in case of posting on the forums here, that is essentially what members are doing (see terms and conditions wording). This doesn't take away anything from the laws on copyright or for example the Berne Convention and it still means that the works can't be copied by others without breaching the owners rights (hmmm, wonder where that exactly leaves quoting functions legally!!).

Over the internet, I think you'll generally find you are assigning your copyright to others when you post etc. on forums/websites where information/content sharing is common. It would be too disruptive for websites not to have this. Even creative commons websites have this, as that license pertains to the copying of the text/information from the website, after it has already been submitted/contributed by an individual.

But I'm no lawyer, let that be clear :)

Are you the legal owner representative of TP?

I believe that anything that a member writes would be protected by copyright, and that by posting it s/he gives TP the right to show it, but they wouldn't have the right to distribute by any other means without the member's permission.

Travellerspoint is owned by a Ltd. which is part owned by me.

You're right in your assumption which is why everytime you use the site/post something you give us that permission... (see Hiens post and the T&C's for the exact wording).

My apologies to Sam and Pete if my last post was unclear.

This is a bona-fide business, and I did not mean to make it sound as if I thought less of it because of the previous discussions. But I consider TP to be like a store: I go in to shop around, and if I don't like what I see, or can't find what I want, I leave and go to another store. And if the owners of the store don't like my behavior in their establishment then they are free to ask me to shop somewhere else.

PS. I love this store.

28. Posted by wtanaka (Budding Member 44 posts) 11y

Generally, if you produce something of value, you ideally want to license it to other people instead of assign the copyright. If you assign the copyright to someone else, it's legally as if they had produced it in the first place.

For example, if you assign copyright for a message you write to a message board, and don't get a license back from the board saying that you can use your own text, you legally cannot then use that exact same text anywhere else anymore, since you no longer are the copyright holder. The owners of the board would be in their rights to then sue you for posting the same message somewhere else.

Another example, if you assign your copyright to a message board, and the message board then goes and sells your writings (or something derived from your writings), you aren't entitled to any renumeration.

Obviously these issues won't come up in practice too often, but it's the cases where they do come up that matter, isn't it?

There are a class of licenses called Copyleft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft
which allow you to share your creative output freely while preventing others from legally profiting unfairly off of your work. Most of the text in Wikipedia is licensed under Copyleft licenses like the Creative Commons, to prevent profiteers from downloading the whole encyclopedia and selling it.

As for me, I just don't ever post anything valuable.

29. Posted by wtanaka (Budding Member 44 posts) 11y

An interesting case study: CDDB (now called Gracenote, I think) is a big database of CDs, indexed in such a way that you can stick a CD into your drive and get a track listing for the CD back from their servers. Their entire database of CDs was submitted by fans and enthusiasts. At some point, they started charging money to use the database, to the same people that had contributed the data in the first place. Because of the terms and conditions that the enthusiasts had agreed to in the first place, it was perfectly legal for CDDB to do this.

30. Posted by Cupcake (Travel Guru 8468 posts) 11y

Quoting beerman

I have yet to come across a posting that was so profound that it would be considered one's personal property.

EXCUSE ME?!?! I have been profoundly moved by the TP novel...too tears even! ;)