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91. Posted by Travel100 (Travel Guru 1556 posts) 11y

Quoting tway

I realize, by the way, that I'm playing semantics a bit here - but, back to my original point, I really do think we should think about and truly understand the words and phrases that governments and the media spew out. When we take and accept them at face value, we sometimes fail to see what's really behind those words. What does fighting for freedon mean? What does the war on terror mean? Why would Iraq/Afghanistan even want democracy in the first place? It's our duty to dig deeper and question.

I agree about the media. How can you trust what you hear? Who knows what is true and what isn't? The same event occurs, one person watchs CNN the other Al-jazera, and obviously get to totally different versions.

If you know the answers to any of the questions you asked above, let us know, I certainly don't. I only know something has to be done to stop those people whose desire is to harm us.

92. Posted by Travel100 (Travel Guru 1556 posts) 11y

Quoting tway

On a side note, I was just talking to a colleague about Africa and their debt and the dictators who will probably not allow funds to trickle down to the people.

Funny that you mention this problem. I was talking to someone familiar with the situation and corruption in Africa. he basically said the same thing, we could give them a Billion dollars tomorrow and a very "tiny" fraction of that would ever benefit the people whom it is intended for.

93. Posted by Travel100 (Travel Guru 1556 posts) 11y

Quoting Brendan

Travel100 - I liked the point you made on war. At what point does one realise that negotiation is out of the question and war is the only way to solve the problem. The point in case, World War Two.

If the nations that fought did not come forward, what would the world be like. Would we all be under the rule of the local Nazi Party? Would we learn of the fantastic expoits of Adolf during his victory over the world?

Perhaps the some 60 million people that were killed would have lived and carried on with their lives? Perhaps we would all still be working at jobs that we hate to buy the junk we don't need?

Indeed the flags would be different, but we would still be fed lies by the media. Run by governments we don't elect and have a general disconcern for the world as a whole. The only result of the war was death. The only result of any war.

Through out the history of Homo Homo Sapiens we have been killing anything that stands in our way. Starting with the neanderthals we have pressed our will and beliefs on others - to fatal ends. History is written by the winners, with a certain flair for making the losers sound evil.

My point being - we would live in the same world full strife and ignorance no matter the victor. Find peace not in the world but within yourself.

Great posts everyone!

How about the senerio, that I think you are suggesting, that not fighting the Nazis with a war would have been a better alternation to fighting and winning WW2.

Ok, so 50 million people don't die in WW2. But ALL the Jews are then murdered, followed bu ALL the Gypsies, then ALL Blacks, ALL mentally disabled people, ALL homosexuals, etc. etc. etc. Maybe way over a BILLION people are killed.

War is horrible but sometimes necessary.

94. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 11y

Quoting Travel100

If you know the answers to any of the questions you asked above, let us know, I certainly don't. I only know something has to be done to stop those people whose desire is to harm us.

Dang, you want the answers, too?? ;) I have no idea - I just think we shouldn't take what we hear at face value. Governments tend to practice double-speak a la 1984 in times of crisis - I've seen it happen here at home (when you enter Quebec City, for example, it says, in French, "Welcome to the National Capital" - when clearly QC is the provincial capital). The media pick up on this and run with it, so I think we each have to take what we hear with a grain of salt and dig deeper.

95. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 11y

Quoting Travel100

Ok, so 50 million people don't die in WW2. But ALL the Jews are then murdered, followed bu ALL the Gypsies, then ALL Blacks, ALL mentally disabled people, ALL homosexuals, etc. etc. etc. Maybe way over a BILLION people are killed.

THAT is a good point... hmmm

96. Posted by Travel100 (Travel Guru 1556 posts) 11y

Quoting Brendan

THAT is a good point... hmmm

Yea, no easy solutions, but there certainly have been plenty of unnecessary, totally avoidable wars, throught the course of history.

97. Posted by Peter (Admin 5789 posts) 11y

Quoting Travel100

Ok, so 50 million people don't die in WW2. But ALL the Jews are then murdered, followed bu ALL the Gypsies, then ALL Blacks, ALL mentally disabled people, ALL homosexuals, etc. etc. etc. Maybe way over a BILLION people are killed.

Agreed and quite frankly I would shudder to think of the world if the Nazis were ruling. The people who fought to defend freedom had no choice but to fight. Yes, there were atrocities from both sides - perhaps many unnecessary, but there can be no question about which side was in the right. And nor can there be a comparison between what happened then and what is going on now.

These terrorists need to be brought to justice. Not the countries they live in. Not the religions they pretend to believe in. The people who are reponsible need to be held responsible. A system of justice is necessary, otherwise dictators would always be in charge. Terrorists and mass murderers have been found and prosecuted before and so they need to be again. If you saw someone on the street being attacked what would be the best reponse?
a) meditate on it
b) try to stop them
c) bomb the house that they live in, so they can't be fed there anymore

Dropping bombs is about the most abhorrent response that I could think of for crimes such as this. Not only do we have to suffer the tragedies the terrorists have brought upon the world, but we have to suffer the shared responsibility for the injust actions of our own countries. All those billions of dollars that could have been used to show the world what justice really is are instead used to strike out indiscriminately, just as the terrorists did. Indeed, those billions of dollars could just as easily have saved a million children dying of hunger and preventable diseases as they did killing innocent civilians.

98. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 11y

I just read that the dickhead who had the bomb on the bus, the same bus that my friend was on and luckily survived with nothing more than concussion and burst ear drums, was a 19 year old from Leeds; the son of a fish and chip shop owner.

Can someone please tell me the link between Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. and this teenage kid and his dickhead mates?

I'm all ears.

99. Posted by Travel100 (Travel Guru 1556 posts) 11y

Quoting Peter

And nor can there be a comparison between what happened then and what is going on now.

Definitely no comparison between what is happening now and with WW2. However, there could be a comparison between stopping these terrorists now (before they kill a million at one time and not 52+ at one time), and stopping the Nazis in the 1930's (before ww2, and possibly thus avoiding millions from being killed).

100. Posted by Travel100 (Travel Guru 1556 posts) 11y

Quoting Peter

These terrorists need to be brought to justice. Not the countries they live in. Not the religions they pretend to believe in. The people who are reponsible need to be held responsible.

My point exactly. Find them and bring them to justice.

I think most of us agree that Iraq has been a disaster, besides many innocent people losing there lives, creating far more problems than before. But at this point the mess created has to be fixed. You can't destroy a country and just leave and say "sorry, good luck."

No attacks on Islam what-so-ever! However, this so-called "Islamic Fundamentalist Extremism" is a real problem. It really has nothing to do with the religion. These extremists obviouly do not understand there so called religion but use it as an excuss to prech hate & destruction. But it is a major problem since they do preach this hatred and are attempting to organize and encourge the killing of innocent people all over the World. I don't know the answer to dealing with them, but I know if they are not stopped it will get much worse before it gets any better.

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