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iraqi civilian deaths

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21. Posted by ukmassage (Inactive 1052 posts) 11y

Quoting tway

Six thousand people die EVERY DAY in Africa

it's sixty actually

22. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 11y

Quoting MASSAGEUK

Quoting tway

Six thousand people die EVERY DAY in Africa

it's sixty actually

Not even close. Around the world, 30,000 people die from poverty-related diseases every day according to Make Poverty History. According to Crosswalk, 6,000 of those are in Africa. The numbers certainly fluctuate from one report to another, but they are always in the thousands.

23. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 11y

Quoting tway

Yes - most definitely. I didn't mean to say that any loss of life was more tragic than another. The point I wanted to make was that we, in the West, don't seem to understand the scale of things. One hundred thousand people died in the tsunami - can we even begin to fathom that number? Can we imagine the reaction had 100,000 people been killed in the hurricane?

Population of Biloxi, Mississippi(year 2000): 50,644. http://www.city-data.com/city/Biloxi-Mississippi.html

You can fathom the 100,000 number. The mayor just has to imagine every man, woman, and child in his city dead. Then go find another city of the same size and watch them all die as well. However, I don't think the mayor has the sophistication to have done the comparison.

24. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 11y

In terms of the Iraqi war. The US must stop fighting this war as if it was the cold war and it had the "right" to fight communism everywhere and anywhere. I think it'll be an eye for an eye fighting in the streets for some years to come I'm afraid. There was a point early on when things could have gone the other way, but the US is in too deep now. Sooner or later, people will get tired of the endless sensless dying and some hard sensible decisions will be made to stop this war.

Consider also the politics of this thing on a global scale. The US MUST make good in Iraq or the post cold war politics will turn the world against America. It has already done so to a great degree, but I don't think it's too late.

25. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 11y

Quoting Q_Zhang

Sooner or later, people will get tired of the endless sensless dying and some hard sensible decisions will be made to stop this war.

Consider also the politics of this thing on a global scale. The US MUST make good in Iraq or the post cold war politics will turn the world against America. It has already done so to a great degree, but I don't think it's too late.

I'm not sure who those people will be... I can almost guarantee that it will not be the US. Oh, we will find all the right rhetoric to make things sound good and we will remove some troops as a show of good faith. But, considering the underlying reasons for this war, which are not those dreaded WMDs or even Hussein's threat to the Kurds or anyone else, as long as our current political leader in sitting in the Oval Office - we won't be going anywhere. And as long as the words terrorism or terrorist continue to punctuate almost every speech, no matter what it's really about, our general populice is not going to push for withdrawl. They will whine about it but nothing more until the next election.

Honestly, I don't believe this administration really gives a damn about how the US is viewed by the "outside" world. Only after the next administration is empowered will any fence-mending even begin to take place. It is an extreme case of tunnel vision and a small group of very powerful people just keep chanting Better safe than sorry!!

26. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 11y

Quoting Isadora

I'm not sure who those people will be...

It's a lot of people I think. It's political leaders who make the right decisions regardless of the political consequences, it's soldiers that decide to talk rather than shoot, it's Arab mothers who stop telling their sons to kill Americans, or American mothers who teach their sons that Arabic traditions are important. It's a whole mindset. I think it's hard for a nation to admit their mistakes and take steps to correct them, and it's also hard for mothers to admit that more killing won't bring back the children they've lost.

War is a primitive and childish behaviour. That's especially true of terrorism. The only sure way I've seen of resolving it is to simply let the combatants fight it out until they're all exhausted and finally admit that they each have the right to exist and no matter how hard you punch you can't make the other disappear. Unfortunately that means a lot of people get killed in the process. And also, unfortunately, more people will be born that forget that lesson. All we can hope for is a time of relative peace.

The other thing I should mention is that I think every nation has the right to fight "terrorism". But there's a right way and a wrong to go about doing it.

Honestly, I don't believe this administration really gives a damn about how the US is viewed by the "outside" world. Only after the next

Yes, but I think you'll agree with me that sooner or later it will become an issue.

27. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 11y

What a strange creature is man that he would choose to cage himself so willingly.

The notion that we need a ruling class is one of greatest fallacies going. Granted, for us to have the society we are accustomed we need the ruling class to give us little tastes of freedom and wealth to keep us under their grasp.

However, what of a society of cooperation? It may be idealistic, but I do not see anything wrong with that. As long as there are people that believe there are better ways for the world to be then there is hope. There are issues that people bring up: infastructure, wealth and power distribution, resource management, etc. - which are all valid points, but what is it about those points that require a ruling class?

A people dedicated to cooperation could manage all of these things. If everyone wanted a world where people were not killed by people.

I guess the only way it would work is if every last person wanted to work towards the good of all. And that is going to happen when pigs fly... although the way Monsanto is going that should be a couple years away.

28. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 11y

Quoting Brendan

The notion that we need a ruling class is one of greatest fallacies going........There are issues that people bring up: infastructure, wealth and power distribution, resource management, etc. - which are all valid points, but what is it about those points that require a ruling class?

It's not a matter of need for me. I want a government. I don't want to have to think about building roads and hospitals and whatever else. I just want it done. It may not be perfect, but at least I can get to where I want to be. As for international relations. I don't know enough about economics or trade agreements or oil supplies to really do a good job of it. More importantly, I don't want to know.

29. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 11y

Regarding every country having the "right" to fight terrorism I need to disagree.

Terrorism is a tactic, not a group or an ideology. You can't "fight terrorism" because it doesn't make any sense. You can fight people who use terrorism as a tactic.

And this is where the situation gets sticky... who defines terrorism? More and more around the world the ruling classes are labeling any descent towards the state as "Terrorismâ„¢". In time simple protest will be outlawed and fought against with force.

30. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 11y

Quoting Q_Zhang

More importantly, I don't want to know.

You and five billion other people...

It is not about everyone doing everything, but more about everyone having a voice about everything.

It would not be "Okay Q_Zhang, it is your turn to design the bridges and roads today". It would be "Okay Q_Zhang, what are your thoughts on us building this road and bridge through here.

Many retort with lack of concern. You don't want to think about the roads and the buildings, everyone wants to live out their life having everything taken care of.

This leads me to believe that apathy will be our downfall.