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Islam and terror

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121. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 10y

John Pilger is an anti-western conspiracy theorist.

There is a suburb in Sydney called Bankstown. It has a high concentration of muslim people in it; most of which are normal, peaceful, productive members of society.

However, Bankstown Town Hall is often the place where radical muslim clerics speak to their flock and attempt to whip up anti-western sentiment. There was a gentleman a few months back preaching about the evils of western women, and how if they are raped, they somehow deserved it. ""A victim of rape every minute somewhere in the world. Why? No one to blame but herself. She displayed her beauty to the entire world . . .Strapless, backless, sleeveless, nothing but satanic skirts, slit skirts, translucent blouses, miniskirts, tight jeans: all this to tease man and appeal to his carnal nature."

But luckily, this man preached to a small minority; that's why there was only 1,000 people present.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Muslim-cleric-women-incite-mens-lust-with-satanic-dress/2005/04/23/1114152362381.html?oneclick=true

There was another gentleman preaching there the other day. He believes that "Islam can never coexist one under the other or one within the other." He had lots of choice things to say.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/miranda-devine/wolves-in-sheeps-clothing-on-an-extremist-mission/2006/04/22/1145344316019.html

Then there was the gentleman by the name of Bilal Skaf. He and his muslim mates were involved in a number of gang rapes of girls in parks in Sydney. During the rapes teenage girls were threatened at gunpoint, beaten, insulted, forced to perform oral sex and raped by up to 14 boys at a time. The victims were subjected to a barrage of racist taunts by their assailants, all of whom were from Lebanese backgrounds. One victim was called an “Aussie pig” and told she would be raped “Leb-style”. Another was told “you deserve it because you’re an Australian”. During the trial the text messages of one of the offenders, Bilal Skaf, were disclosed as containing sentiments such as “When you are feeling down... bash a Christian or Catholic and lift up”.

A couple of years later the so-called Ashfield (Sydney suburb) rape cases involving four Pakistani brothers came to light. The names of the accused were not made public in order to conceal the identity of the youngest (since he was a minor at the time). Known as MSK, MAK, MRK and MMK, they are now aged between 18 and 26.

A number of teenage victims, one as young as 13, were raped at the brothers’ family home in Sydney over many months in 2002. They made videos of some of their victims.

For their defence, the brothers emphasised their Muslim identity, claiming they were the victims of a police conspiracy. Two of the brothers refused legal representation, accusing all lawyers of being biased against Muslims. They claimed media publicity was prejudicial. And they repeatedly sacked their barristers.

The Legal Aid Commission told the presiding judge that it was prepared to accommodate the accused with Pashto- and Urdu-speaking lawyers, but the brothers wanted experts in Muslim law from overseas, which the Commission declined to provide.

In court one brother called Crown Prosecutor Margaret Cunneen a “slut”. The father, who gave evidence in the trial and said the rapes could not have happened because he had been home all night, bowed on his prayer mat.

My point? It seems to me that Islam is almost pre-occupied with death, the control of women, and paranoia about other religions. It seems that whenever a nasty crime is committed in Sydney, you can lay money on the offender being "of middle eastern appearance", and when they are caught, they start raving on about islam, Mohammed, and conspircay theories. These people seem to be over-represented in criminal activity, hence new crime squads set up to counteract "middle eastern crime".

I'm so glad that Islam is the religion of peace.

122. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 10y

Quoting applegirl

..I am a member of Amnesty International and a firm believer in Human Rights...

I hope that you fight for the rights of women who live in strict Islamic states. I'm not talking about the harmless stuff like women not being allowed to work, drive a car, go out in public without a male, etc. but stuff like forced marriages, officially sanctioned rape, and honour killings.

Tell me about the work you are doing for these women. I'm be very interested to hear what inroads you've made against these sorts of things.

Also, just a simple question. As a woman, where would you rather live - Australia or Saudi Arabia? I'm sure you'd answer "Australia" but I'm equally sure you wouldn't admit that islam is the main reason for not choosing Saudi Arabia. If not, why not?

123. Posted by wotthefiqh (Inactive 1447 posts) 10y

Good God,
Little Johnny Pilger!!!!
Another cultural self-loather like Harold Pinter, but has been doing it for much longer.
Could be a dreadful vaudevlle act if that artform ever comes back into vogue.
'Ladies and gentlemen, for your delectation, let me introduce Pinter and Pilger, purveyors of intellectual incontinence and half-baked conspiracy theories. Find out who really killed Bambi and more'.
I was an avid Pilgerite about 25-30 years ago, but that changed when I realised I had a brain to form my own opinions instead of relying on an ideologue's rantings.
Pilger found out early in his career that crass anti-Americanism was a nice little earner, and he has been milking it ever since.
It's about time he retired to his holiday home in the the fraternal, peace-loving, progressive worker's paradise of North Korea, where he can genuflect to The Great Leader, Mini-Kim. But I digress.
Applegirl is right. I don't know any Moslems personally, but that is irrelevant anyway.
My father didn't know any Germans personally back in 1939, but he quickly formed an opinion about Nazism when he was sent to North Africa in 1942.
I had a soft spot for Communism back in the mid-sixties when in high school, but that quickly changed when the Red Army invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968. I had never met a Russian at that stage of my life, but that didn't stop me despising the brutal totalitarian ideology emanating from Moscow.
I actually mentioned the similarities between Islam and Communism (the book, the prophet and the promised land), and was referring to the absolutist dogma of certain strains of Islam (Wahhabism of Saudi, the Taliban, Iran's theocratic tyrants) as ideologically murderous as communism.
I never equated Islam with Nazism. That was mentioned in the text of Salman's statement co-signed by 11 others, and it was in reference to Islamism, the new totalitarian ideology born within the Islamic world.
The first part of the statement is -
"After having overcome fascism, Nazism, and Stalinism, the world now faces a new totalitarian global threat: Islamism."

Your post said -
"People like cobbana scare the living shit out of me frankly."
Firstly, don't call me Frankly, as I hate my middle name.
My posts have NOT, and I repeat, NOT attacked the moslem faithful. I have issued no DEATH FATWAS, I have not suggested or encouraged JIHAD (Holy War), and I did not demonstrate in the streets of London screaming for the Danish cartoonist to be beheaded as some British moslems did.
In Bin Liner's fatwa (religious ruling) issued in 1998, it states -
"In compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it."
I won't bore you with the rest of the dirge, but even Blind Freddy understood that judgment, and that should scare you far more than any personal opinion of mine, particularly when, in President Musharref's opinion, only 1 % of moslems agree with Bin Liner's ideology (1 % of 1.3 billion is 130 million).
I don't believe Bin Liner has the religious authority to issue as fatwa, as he supposedly bought his credentials in Sudan for a coupla million dollars (US dollars of course). Bit like getting on the Net and buying a doctorate in Divinity from a Southern Baptists college in Tallahoosie, Alabama.

I simply have grave concerns about a culture whose sole reaction to supposed insult, criticism or call for reform seem to be mindless violence actively encouraged by it's clerics, a culture which praises suicide bombers, a culture which allows it's absolutists to advocate jihad (holy war), and a culture which calls the faithful to murder by religious decree.

If Church of England cleric the Right Honourable Nigel Ponsonby-Smythe, vicar of Dunny-On-The-Wold, was to get up in the pulpit and call for a new Crusade to return Jerusalem to the one True Faith, he would be whisked out the back of the vestry tout suite and hopefully would be under heavy-duty electrotherapy before the day was out.
Moslem clerics (e.g. Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria) regularly incite the faithful to demonstrate in the streets after Friday prayer, screaming 'Death to America, or Denmark, or the UK, or Norway, or Italy', or whichever western democracy is flavour of the week for hate indoctrination.

Just recently the head of the Church of England issued a statement apologising for it's role in the slave trade in the 17th and 18th century.
In contrast, leading Saudi government cleric Sheik Al-Fawzan, author of the country's religious curriculum, believes Islam advocates slavery.

Two further examples -

Daily Star Newspaper - Egypt - CAIRO: A fatwa issued by Egypt's top religious authority which forbids the display of statues has art-lovers fearing it could be used by Islamic extremists as an excuse to destroy Egypt's historical heritage.
Ali Gomaa, grand mufti of Egypt, had pointed to a passage from the hadith that stated: "Sculptors would be tormented most on Judgment Day," saying the text left no doubt that sculpting was "sinful" and using statues for decorating homes forbidden.

ME - I have heard of one Egyptian cleric who wishes to destroy all vestiges of pre-Islamic culture, meaning the annihalation of the Pyramids, Sphinx, Luxor temples and presumably all items currently in the Cairo museum. Taliban barbarism revisited.

BBC report March 2006? -
Police in Nigeria have imposed a curfew on the northern city of Maiduguri after a mob angry over European cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed torched churches and killed 15 people.
It began with a peaceful demonstration organised by Islamic groups against the cartoons of the Prophet.
Witnesses say demonstrators were chanting "Allah Akhbar" or "God is great" when police fired tear gas to disperse the crowd.
As they fled, mobs attacked churches and businesses owned by the Christian minority in the city.

If you wish to understand my opinion of Islam, read the Salman Rusdie statement which I included in my last post (4 of the signees have been death fatwaed, but don't let that fact get in the way of you calling me a bigot).
I like the words in the statement '"Islamophobia", an unfortunate concept which confuses criticism of Islam as a religion with stigmatization of its believers'.

I, like many others, have negative views on American foreign policy, it's moneyed political system and the cultural dross pumped out by Hollywood and TV companies. By voicing my opinions on those subjects, I am criticising the systems, NOT the American people.
My criticisms of Islam is aimed at the system, not at the faithful.
Are you a universalist or a culturalist?
A universalist believes that the Universal Declaration On Human Rights should apply to every human being.
A culturalist believes that the Universal Declaration On Human Rights should NOT apply in cultures whose values conflict with
human rights.
By the way, the power holders of the moslem world met in 1981 and issued a 'Moslem Declaration On Human Rights', which states that human rights are OK as long as they conform to Islamic values.
That may explain why no-one migrates to Islamic countries but millions of moslems migrate to western democracies.
What is your opinion on Abdel Rahman al-Rashed's letter?

124. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 10y

Quoting applegirl

I am a member of Amnesty International and a firm believer in Human Rights.

I doubt you will find anyone here who is not a believer in Human Rights, including your right to believe as you choose. I also think you will find that you are not the only member of Amnesty Intl., as they have never returned any of my checks.

I seek my information from a lot of different sources.

Good. I would hate to think you are as closed-mined as you believe the responders in this thread are - they are not.

I do not think the world is as easy as 'we are good, they are bad'. I am disgusted by this distorted view of muslims that among others cobbana has. I live in a city where muslims, christians, jews, buddhists etc live side by side peacefully. And beyond that are inspired by each other.

I have yet to read a reply that has colored the issue of Islam in basic black and white. On the contrary, the sentiments appear to be fueled more by the issue of fundamentalism. (Fundamentalism = A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.) Fundementalists in any religion are scary! Is innihilation of even one person by another, in the name of God, acceptable? This is not a discussion about 1.3 billion Muslims, but rather a discussion about the small percentage of Muslims who have taken the teaching of Islam to a whole new level - that of destruction. God didn't invent Islam any more than he invented Catholicism, Judism, Buddhism or any other religion - man did.

I have also lived in cities made up of many different cultures (including Muslims) who have lived together peacably. Most of them came to this country to make a better life for their families and themselves. The difference - they were willing to adapt to the cultures of their new home, while still maintaining their own culture identities. They did not push their agenda on others and practice intolerance.

I have come to the conclusion that this travellers forum is far too bigotry for me.
I thought travellers proud themselves with knowing a little bit more about the world, that travelling built bridges between all sorts of ethinic groups, religions, backgrounds and so on.

But apperantly not here, and obviously not when it comes to Muslims.

You may be correct. This forum may be too bigoted for you. Then again, there is the possibility that tunnel vision is obscuring your view of what is really being said here. Travelers do pride themselves in their knowledge of the world beyond their own back yard. But, just because they have seen beyond their own boundaries doesn't mean they will necessarily see the world through your eyes.

125. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 10y

Quoting applegirl

I have come to the conclusion that this travellers forum is far too bigotry for me.

I'm always curious as to why people who no longer want to waste their time speaking to other people always seem to take the time to tell them so.

Quoting applegirl

I live in a city where muslims, christians, jews, buddhists etc live side by side peacefully. And beyond that are inspired by each other.

I also live in a city where people of different cultures, religions and languages live side by side. On the whole, there's a great deal of tolerance - but I don't think any one city anywhere in the world is a cultural Shangri-La. There's racism and intolerance everywhere - whether it's overt or under the surface. We simply have to keep trying to help people better understand one another.

126. Posted by tallbird (Respected Member 269 posts) 10y

I know that we have had a lot of news on Muslim insurgencies in recent years, but let us all not forget that, apart from Buddhism, every major religion in the world has fought wars in history. The majority of the people that believe in religion do NOT condone what the minority of their believers(extremists) are doing.
It is a fact that Catholics burned Protestants, that Hindus and Muslims killed eachother, that Christians lead the Crusades, etc. And all these examples took place "in the name of religion". The "wars of religion" have always been led by a few greedy (usually overweight-if you watch historical epics)cardinals, preachers, etc who have managed to play on the disatisfaction of their people and have blamed that discontent on other religious believers.
This still happens today, but it doesn't mean that ALL muslims are discontent and therefore the vast majority of them are completely opposed to this terror.

127. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 10y

A couple of things. Once a bomb explodes, there's very little evidence left of the seeker head. Meaning journalist love to use the words "smart bomb" because it hints at something being targeted and sensationalizes the story. Where as in reality, the building might have been just caught in the cross fire and got hit by an unguided "dumb" bomb or even flying bits from the building next door. Bombs tend to destroy indiscreminately.

According to the CNN news this weekend, even the American journalism is too bloody and one sided for Pres. Bush !

128. Posted by Jase007 (Travel Guru 8870 posts) 10y

Now, i've stayed out of this one but watched it and looked at different peoples replies.
It is amazing that this thread got off to a good start with reasonable balanced views (not perfect, but Everone is biased), then it's almost become a slanging match.
Bringing the idea of the above mentioned religon and the act or terror together, is a fire cracker of a question and was just asking for some heated over reaction. Mind you it could have been any religon, somewhere, sometime i would say every religon(aledgedy)has carried out some form of terror.
It's just a shame that people don't have the ability to act in the high and mighty "we are not animals, we are better than them", they preach one thing and do another.
Hypocrisy
- they are all as bad as one another, but I believe everyone has the right to live how they want as long as is dosen't encroach on my lifestyle to a detramantal effect.
This brings me to my point - as most wars are started in the name of religeon (however you spell it), and terror has been around since long before man decided to stop swinging from the trees. It seems to me, as long as man exists along with some type of religon there will always be terror and war.

Everone is a biggot, everyone is prejudice, everyone is greedy to some extent. And everyone has terrorised something in their life, be it an ant, tree or person. Is the question Islam and terror? the answer is no, it's Man and Terror

129. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 10y

Quoting Guinness

Now, i've stayed out of this one but watched it and looked at different peoples replies.
It is amazing that this thread got off to a good start with reasonable balanced views (not perfect, but Everone is biased), then it's almost become a slanging match.
Bringing the idea of the above mentioned religon and the act or terror together, is a fire cracker of a question and was just asking for some heated over reaction. Mind you it could have been any religon, somewhere, sometime i would say every religon(aledgedy)has carried out some form of terror.
It's just a shame that people don't have the ability to act in the high and mighty "we are not animals, we are better than them", they preach one thing and do another.
Hypocrisy
- they are all as bad as one another, but I believe everyone has the right to live how they want as long as is dosen't encroach on my lifestyle to a detramantal effect.
This brings me to my point - as most wars are started in the name of religeon (however you spell it), and terror has been around since long before man decided to stop swinging from the trees. It seems to me, as long as man exists along with some type of religon there will always be terror and war.

Everone is a biggot, everyone is prejudice, everyone is greedy to some extent. And everyone has terrorised something in their life, be it an ant, tree or person. Is the question Islam and terror? the answer is no, it's Man and Terror

You can spell Guinness, but you can't spell religion.

Glad to see you have your priorities right

130. Posted by Belize Me (Full Member 137 posts) 10y

Quoting Guinness

And everyone has terrorised something in their life, be it an ant, tree or person.

Perhaps, but the question is, did they do it willingly and with malice? Big difference.

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