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Islam and terror

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191. Posted by wotthefiqh (Inactive 1447 posts) 10y

Quoting Not Lost

Islam is a religion.
NO religion exists in a vacuum.
Every faith has an overwhelming influence on society, particularly in the social and cultural spheres.
Islam is the primary faith which ultra-violently intrudes into the social, cultural and political sphere as a God-given right (murderous theocracy in Iran, barbaric Taliban in Afghanistan, trogolyte mullahs in NW Pakistan, Northern Nigeria, Sudan, etc).

Religions do not fight with each other.
Islam has always divided the world into two parts, the Dar al-Islam (Abode of Islam) and the Dar al-Harb (the Abode of War) or infidel world. Islam has been trying to conquer Christian Europe since the moslem armies came riding out of Arabia in the 7th century AD. The last major attempts happened when the Ottoman Empire was repulsed from the Gates of Vienna twice in the 17th century.

It is man who fights man.
Mainly in pub brawls, and especially after a 0-0 draw in a major soccer game.
More serious violence requires a club (e.g. Hell's Angels), a primitive religious cult (Saudi wahhabism), ethnic groups (e.g.Tamil & Singhalese) or heretical deviations (e.g. Catholic & Protestant).
Europe went through massive blood-letting religious wars 3-4 hundred years ago, and the eventual outcome was tolerance and democracy (with some obvious exceptions).
The Sunni and Shia in Iraq have AK-47's, RPG's and Semtex.
The Christian nutters in the 16th century had swords and very primitive firearms.
Where would you rather be? Europe in 1676 or Iraq in 2006?

So it's got nothing to do with religion.
There is no divide in Islam between the religious, social, cultural, commercial and political.
The Jesus expression 'render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's, and unto God that which is God's' defines western society, and we wouldn't have it any other way.

Trouble only happens when some quarters misinterpret.
Do the jihadis actually misinterpret? There are plenty of moslem clerics screaming hatred, violence and holy war against the crusaders, zionists and infidels. Iranian ayatollahs are experts at inciting the faithful to riot in the streets baying for the blood of the unbeliever. Reminds me of the old 30's horror movies with the pig-ignorant villagers, pitchforks and burning brands in hand, chasing Frankenstein's monster and howling for it's death.

So if you know nothing about Islam, do not make any judgments.
It's a pity moslem clerics don't adhere to your opinion, because they know nothing about western liberal democratic values or the benefits they have brought humanity.
Why have millions of moslem faithful fled the ummah to live in the Jahiliya world?
I have the democratic right to express an opinion on any matter under the sun, whether I am an expert on the matter or not.
I don't need a degree in Islamic studies from Al-Azhar university to hold Islam to account for it's medieval absolutism, neither do I need to be a paying republican to criticise Bush and the current administration, to rail against Japanese whaling or disparage Paris Hilton for wearing the wrong nail-varnish in a photo-shoot.

My opinion deserve merit or demerit from it's reasoning and the evidence I may present to support it.
Your opinion also rests on this principle, and I find it very very wanting.

192. Posted by wotthefiqh (Inactive 1447 posts) 10y

If you read this cant you should get a life

These posts have been moved over from the 'Airport Security - Overaction' thread because they were squatters

Brendan on August 13th -

If your government was responsible for the deaths of 80,000 people would you want to know...

Am I the only one with some reservations about the entire event? As far as I am concerned everything I hear on CNN, BBC, CBC, FOX, ecetera is hearsay. It seems most people are taking it all as fact. That 20 odd "terrorists" were thwarted by london's finest. They managed to stop "the next 9/11".

Looking at the big picture what did this allow? It took the spot light even further off Iraq. People forgot about Lebanon for the most part, and everyone is rallied behind their governments once again.

Fear is the ultimate tool of leadership. The only way for leadership to survive is for the followers to believe they need that leadership. In a time of non-believers, evil doers, anarchists, terrorists, liberals, vegetarians it is becoming more and more difficult for leadership to rally support. As our countries become more diverse and multi-cultural it becomes more difficult for our democratic governments to make a strong showing in other parts of the world.

So what is the one way around that? An enemy. If the country in question has an enemy, the people of that country - regardless of origin will (for the most part) rally behind the country. With all of the support they need they can make sweeping legislation to take away freedoms in the name of security. It has happened countless times through-out history, and it comes once again.

I don't understand when a person says "I would rather lose some freedoms to gain some security". You are losing the very thing that your supposed governemt is fighting for.

Airport security being an extension of the power mongering

Wotthefiqh on August 15th -

I almost had a LOTR 'Two Towers' flashback when I read 'power mongering'.
Reminded me of Grima Wormtongue accusing Eomer of war-mongering before Eomer got biffoed and exiled from Rohan.

The definition of suborn is -

1 To induce (a person) to commit an unlawful or evil act.
2 To induce (a person) to commit perjury.
3 To procure (perjured testimony).

From Brendan's posts, it seems that Tony Blair (Saruman to Bush's Sauron in some people's minds) has managed to suborn MI5, MI6, Special Branch, the Metropolitan Police, the Thames Valley police, every media outlet on the planet (at least the Western ones anyway), the Pakistani intelligence service and President Musharref, simply to take attention off Iraq and Lebanon.
Perhaps he offered Musharref a seat in the House of Lords with the title Lord Mushie of Peas.
Imposing that level of security at all UK airports has, and will have, a huge economic impact on the UK economy, especially as this is the high season for visiting foreign tourists.
Add the anger and frustation of UK citizens attempting to fly overseas for their summer holidays along with normal business travellers, and Blair would be hung, drawn and quartered at Tyburn if it came out that it was a government plot.
Does he need to invoke an imaginary enemy after Buenos Aires, Nairobi, 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Istanbul and Mumbai?

Brendan's on August 16th -

Interesting Lord of the Rings analogy, horrible movies by the way. All I ask wotthefiqh, is that people at least question what they hear and see. Just because you hear on the new 21 people were arrested because they were going to blow up planes does not make it a truth. One way of questioning such events is to look at what would be the motivation and who has it.

The Terrorists™ do have motive of course - when their home countries are being blanketed in Depleted Uranium. The leadership of our nations certainlly have motive, they are doing a very good job of make us realise how much we need them.

I'm not saying there were definitely no Terrorists™, and I am not saying it was definitely a governemnt plot. All I ask is question.

Cowardice asks the question, "Is it safe?" Expediency asks the question, "Is it politic?" And Vanity comes along and asks the question, "Is it popular?" But Conscience asks the question, "Is it right?" And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Concience tells him it is right.

Wotthefiqh on September 3rd -

Questions -

1) In your previous post, where did you get 80,000? I managed to get 30,000 from an independent study (I think I still have the website if you want to research it) while Zoom is a different post gets 100,000. Sounds like a Christies's auction for Beatles memorabilia!!! Could you please quote chapter and verse on your figures.

Airport security being an extension of the power mongering

2) What the *** does that mean, or is it truly a Grima Wormtongue?

3) Do you prefer the term Islamist or Islamofascist to describe mass-murderous holy warriors?

4) I question many things every day. Why do I go the office?
Answer - to fund my holidays and ensure that I walk away with a million bucks in 6 years.

It used to be 'Clothes maketh the Man'.
Now it's 'Depleted uranium maketh the jihadi/shaheed/mujahhadin'.
The first attempt to destroy the World Trade Center was back in 1996, so who was blanketing the moslem world with depleted uranium 10 years ago?
The Russians may have left some lying around Afghanistan during their invasion and occupation between 1979 and 1990, but the USA didn't bother with the place until after 9/11, except for funding and materially helping the ungrateful mujahhadin to defeat the Soviets in the first place.

STEADY IN THE RANKS.
A few more posts to come to set the scene.....

193. Posted by wotthefiqh (Inactive 1447 posts) 10y

If you were sucked in by the previous post's cant, might as well read on AD NAUSEA --

Brendan's Reply of September 4th -

wotthefiqh, my count of 80,000 people has nothing to do with Iraq. It was a hypothetical question: "If your government was responisble for the deaths of 80,000 people would you really want to know about it?"

Airport security is an extension of the governments hand. I will try to spell out my point. Governments need citizens to survive, and as most beasts, governments will do all that is required to survive. So, if governments need citizens, what is the best way to control citizens? Through fear. What we are seeing now is governments around the world vying for more control and power, they do that by increasing the amount of fear the masses hold.

If you release a report saying "37 Terrorists arrested, stopping unheard of devistation!" People are scared, and greatful at the same time. "It's a good thing we have the government to protect us from the Barbarians".

It's the same old story, eons past. The barbarians are always at the gate, if they weren't we would have no need for governments.

Wotthefiqh replied September 6th -

80,000 - My initial belief was that you were quoting 80,000 deaths in Iraq from some authoritative source, not making a
hypothetical intro into what could be construed as a political conspiracy theory.
You could always contact the Sudanese government about the estimated 200,000+ deaths in Darfur and the hundreds of thousands
displaced by state violence and murder. I'm sure President Al-Bashir doesn't want us to know the true facts about it.

Security - Airport security is an absolute necessity because of Islamist mass-murderers. I can't recall any Sikh, Buddhist, Shinto or Amish suicide bombers attacking innocent people in the name of the faith.
Governments don't really like citizens, but citizens need decent governments to survive otherwise you have anarchy (think Mad Max 2). Citizens vote politicians out of office (scarce as hen's teeth in most moslem countries), hold governments accountable (scarce as rocking horse shit in most moslem countries), expect them to create peaceful, secure,civil and economically-viable societies (few and far between in most moslem countries), and would much prefer to have their taxes spent on education, health and infrastructure rather than Homeland Security and thousands of beefy neanderthals wielding M16's or Speyr rifles.

Arrested - Should we be pissed off instead?

Barbarians - Sounds like the hoary old conspiracy about America needing a new enemy after Soviet communism finally rotted off the bones of the proletariat.
I would rather live under a western-style and deeply-flawed democratic government than an Islamic government (e.g. Iran) or
no government at all (e.g. Somalia). John Howard gets my vote every time.

Hamid Gul, ex-chief of the Pakistan Intelligence Service, reckons that 9/11 was planned and carried out by Mossad and the CIA to blacken the name of Islam?
Top that for a conspiracy theory!!!

Brendan's Reply September 6th -

Interesting argument, all I saw was mostly derogatory & generalised comments towards Islam and it's followers; I thought we were having an actauly discussion, I guess I was wrong.

Jase007 reply September 6th -

One idea could always go back to the days before the free travel between countries.
If the boarders were put back up through out EU and other bloc's of countries. EVERYONE would be force into going through security checks every time they go through a boarder.
Freedom to travel aound on a wim and be watched on CCTV cameras everywhere or secure boarders and the freedom to roam the country?
Air travel is too cheap on the whole nowdays and the systems can't cope with the millions who fly every day. Security halls in most airports were design 20 years ago and have been updated continually, but still remain dated in design.
To brand a religeon a cause is doing exacly what the Nazi's did in the 1930's. Huge sweaping generalisations can be naive and dangerous, it's that sort of banter that some will use to propergate and use for their own benifit.

Wotthefiqh Reply to Brendan September 7th -

Six months after 9/11, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf made a speech at a scientific conference and said -
"The Muslim Ummah, or the Islamic world, is the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most
un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race."
I simply made some pertinent and factual remarks about the abject poverty and tyrannies in the Moslem world as noted by President Musharraf, and laced them with two good old Aussie expressions (scarce as hens teeth, scarce as rocking horse shit).

derogatory - showing strong disapproval and not showing respect

If you regard my Aussieisms as derogatory, so be it.

My definition of derogatory -

A few weeks ago Moslem leaders here in Australia requested that my government recognise Hezbollah as a political party, after it's military wing had killed a number of Israeli soldiers, kidnapped two and rocketed villages and towns in Northern Israel.
John Howard's response to this request was 'No chance'. Moslem derogation of democratic principles.

Moslem leaders in the UK have requested the government to allow some aspects of Sharia Law be introduced so that young moslems don't turn to mass-murder. Could you pass that contempt for Western democratic law and values by me again!!!

Australia's Treasurer Peter Costello made a speech a few months ago in which he said that if any moslem wished to live under Sharia Law, they had better leave the country as it was never going to happen. Moslem leaders, as expected, freaked out and called his speech provocative. Just another moslem derogation.

If you have any concrete evidence whatsoever of a political conspiracy to induce fear and loathing of Islam into western society, please produce it. Maybe some Mongergate tapes as per the Watergate tapes?
In return I could list each and every act of Islamic terrorism, every call to Jihad, every murder fatwa and every expression of hate and violence against the West mouthed by mullahs and ayatollahs in the past 25 years (since the ascension of Khomenei
to the Peacock throne). Now that would be one helluva long post!!!

I find it very hard to have a discussion with nothing more substantial than smoke and mirrors.

Jase007 replied September 7th -

Moslem leaders in the UK have requested the government to allow some aspects of Sharia Law be introduced so that young moslems don't turn to mass-murder. Could you pass that contempt for Western democratic law and values by me again!!!

- No chance of it ever happening, but an example of two legal systems is New Zealand - Maori can ask to be tried under Maori
law (i'm not sure it applies to all criminal activites) so are you saying that the Maori have the same contempt for democratic law as the Moslem clerics?

In return I could list each and every act of Islamic terrorism, every call to Jihad, every murder fatwa and every expression
of hate and violence against the West mouthed by mullahs and ayatollahs in the past 25 years (since the ascension of Khomenei
to the Peacock throne). Now that would be one helluva long post!!!
I find it very hard to have a discussion with nothing more substantial than smoke and mirrors.

The original question posed on the thread was Airport security - over reaction?.
If you have this view of the Islamic faith, do you also hold the same view for the Catholic church? There was a time when
they were burning thousands at the stake, burning villages and murdering people in the name of an inquisition. They also
stood by whilst the holocaust took place. I'm curious to how you feel about it?

Brendan replied September 7th -

I think this issue lies far deeper than airport security, pre-emptive war, conspiracy. The elite & wealthy classes of our
world are the ones whom control it. Monarchies, Democracies, Dictatorships, Rogue States - they are all controlled by the
powerful, the rich, the violent. They will use any means available to maintain that power, and if need be take everyone down
with them.

Governments are insane (afflicted with or characteristic of mental derangement). They do not care about life, about our landbase, or the very elements that life requires. Water, Air, Food... they are being poisened, we are dying.
wotthefiqh (and everyone else), do you believe that the governments of the world (West & East) make their decisions based on the well being of humanity, the well being of their citizens, the well being of future generations?

Do you believe that Westernised Democracy is the only true method of government?

It is told that in Democracy, any member of that society can become a leader. Do you find that only the wealthy and elite are
in control?

Do you believe that governments will do anything in their means to survive, even at the cost of their citizens?

Do you have the same views on other religions as you do Islam?

Quiet on the set.
Lights, act....!!!
Where the hell is that goddam scritpwriter? Get his ass in here cause we need more dialogue..........

194. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 10y

Hello wouterr
At the moment u dont hear about Christian or Hindu terrrorist attacks. But u dont have to look far back in history to find hatred and violence in both areas. Well Christian at least. I dont know much about Hindu history(i might read something, about it soon).
There have been countless wars, associated with various religions. Whats more, is religion is often used to justify attrocities.
Mel

195. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 10y

Those of the world with callused hearts will will always go to war, they will use any justification. For some it just so happens to be religion; if there were no religions there would still be death and war, only the reason would change. Religion is not the culprit, I would say it is the as much the victim as anyone else.

196. Posted by majito (Respected Member 442 posts) 10y

What a load of nonsense this post is. It's a travel forum; it's supposed to help everyone find their way through unknown countries and to really discover things previously not seen or felt. In simple terms - for those of you who have chosen to wade in with paragraphs of personal beliefs and opinions and totally unbalanced opinions - chill out, stick to the point of this site.

197. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 10y

Quoting majito

What a load of nonsense this post is. It's a travel forum; it's supposed to help everyone find their way through unknown countries and to really discover things previously not seen or felt. In simple terms - for those of you who have chosen to wade in with paragraphs of personal beliefs and opinions and totally unbalanced opinions - chill out, stick to the point of this site.

This particular forum is aptly named General Talk and discussions, such as this one, are allowed here. Those members seeking information about particular countries will find answers in the forums related to those areas. Here, they will find "general" discussions about many topics.

Also, balanced or not, everyone is allowed to voice their opinion, debate, discuss and respond, in a civilized manner, to threads like these. Personal attacks toward another member will not be allowed. As this is General Talk, the thread has been allowed to stay by Administration and Moderators. Members have the choice of reading it or ignoring it.

198. Posted by wotthefiqh (Inactive 1447 posts) 10y

Quoting majito

What a load of nonsense this post is. It's a travel forum; it's supposed to help everyone find their way through unknown countries and to really discover things previously not seen or felt. In simple terms - for those of you who have chosen to wade in with paragraphs of personal beliefs and opinions and totally unbalanced opinions - chill out, stick to the point of this site.

If only it were nonsense.

Unfortunately there are moslem holy warriors/serial killers out there who make it a sad reality.

199. Posted by Peter (Admin 5789 posts) 10y

Quoting wotthefiqh

Unfortunately there are moslem holy warriors/serial killers out there who make it a sad reality.

Ditto for Christian holy warriors. Remember Serbia? Maybe Rwanda? Or how about Northern Ireland? Hitler a little further back? Religion has been an excuse for deep seeded hate since the dawn of man. There's nothing new about the current situation.

And I'm not blaming religion for the world's state of affairs either. I'm religious and a pacifist and most other religious people I know are as well, so somewhere someone is either interpreting things very differently to me or just pretending to be religious. I think it's the latter.

I think this thread has pretty much exhausted every possible argument by now anyway.. I'm not sure why it keeps on being dragged back up.

200. Posted by wotthefiqh (Inactive 1447 posts) 10y

For Northern Ireland, read Post # 185 in this thread.
The NI post also applies to Serbia, namely that the major impulse was nationalism rather than Christianity v Islam. The Serbs didn't discriminate about killing roman catholic Croats or Slovenes or Macedonians.

I can't recall the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury exhorting the masses to perform genocide in Rwanda, or do you know something I don't?

Hitler was nationalism on a world scale, and the murderous Japanese empire wasn't acting on Buddhist or Shinto belief.

Jihad, or holy war, is a constant of Islamic history. Many passages of the Koran and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad are used by jihad warriors today to justify their actions and gain new recruits, and some of the invocations to murder in the holy book are pretty gruesome.
As the Koran is the direct word of God (as opposed to the Bible), the jihadis believe that they are fulfilling God's purpose.
Snuff-movie star Abu Musab al-Zarqawi seems to have preferred the following suras from the Koran -

Sura 47:4 "If you encounter those who disbelieve, you may strike their necks..."
Sura 8:12 "'I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: Smite ye above their necks [behead them] and smite all their fingertips off them.'"

Just ask Nick Berg.

Please, no ripost about the violent passages in the Bible, as the West went through the Reformation, the Age of Reason etc and left almost all of that religious agression behind (with a few isolated exceptions). Could you imagine a Pope proclaiming a new Crusade to retake Jerusalem? I don't think so.

This thread will have relevance as long as jihadis/salafists/wahhabists advertise their intentions to wage war on the infidel west and have been proven to be very proficient at achieving their objectives (NY/Washington/Madrid/Bali/Buenos Aires, etc, etc etc).

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