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Islam and terror

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21. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 10y

Well spoke, Q, well spoke. Sad, but altogether true.....

22. Posted by wouterrr (Travel Guru 3379 posts) 10y

Quoting applegirl

Isn't it a funny thing then that the American administration have appointed these religious leaders who DON'T condemn the terrorist attacks for many important posts in the Iraqi government?

It seems that you are very anti-american applegirl!!! So you are actually saying that its our own fault that Al-quaida is terrorising the west?

23. Posted by john7buck (Respected Member 458 posts) 10y

I'm not quite sure how to get into this. Let me preface by saying I'm as oppposed to Mr. Bush and the rest of his right wing wackjobs as they come. I also am perhaps less politically knowledgeable than many on this site. What confuses me though is the hypocracy that denounces us for getting involved in Afghanistan and Iraq (yes, obviously self interest is the driving force) while ignoring the issues in Africa and elsewhere. Indeed, this is a crying shame, but why is it always the good old USA that is ALWAYS to blame for this. Like I said, I don't have a lot of numbers or figures, but I'd like to know what the rest of the world with resources is doing to ELIMINATE this problem. It seems to me that Bono and other celebrities seem to be the only ones truly concerned with this problem. Blame the US sure, but I think there is pretty wide worldwide net to be cast when it comes to acessing blame.

I guess as an American I get fed up with always being the bad guy. I'm actually a pretty nice guy!

24. Posted by Sam I Am (Admin 5588 posts) 10y

I have to agree somewhat with you on that one john7buck. Americans as a whole are getting the bad end of the deal now and it's definitely not always 'fair'. For example, no matter what is done in Irak now they mess up either way; be it pull out or stay put. And the rest of the world is now basically saying, "you got yourselves into it without needing us, don't start asking now". And I think you can count on one hand the countries that are making strong political statements against Mugabe and other atrocities going on in other countries...

That aside though, America also does a lot of good! In terms of world economics, a large part of the world would not be as well off right now if it wasn't for money coming from America (business investments and donations). Of course business is run for the gain of the shareholders in principle, but it also generates employment and thus a standard of living for a lot of people!

Large parts of Europe are close to recession and have extremely high unemployment based on their politics; it's well known that this is the perfect 'breeding ground' for terrorists and hatred in general. It pays to sometimes look at yourself/own country and see what you/they are doing about stuff before always looking at a big easy target

It's all making my head spin now...

25. Posted by john7buck (Respected Member 458 posts) 10y

You're right Sam and I'm certainly not looking for a pat on the back for America by any means. I just hope that in these conversations people do not confuse extremism and politics for the will of a people as a whole. Interesting times. . .

26. Posted by TKolb325 (Full Member 197 posts) 10y

I hear you John! I hate being the bad guy, but that is the price we voluntarily pay for living in a country that may not make the best choices.

What it really comes down to, is America's role in the world. We always take action. Whether it is in military form, or monetary form, we take action. Whether we should or not is what creates controversy.

But motivations for whether we should or not isn't always a black and white area. Maybe no one told us to get involved here, or Veitnam or any of our controversial moves, but the world does expect some kind of move from the Americans. We have all heard it before, America ends up acting like the world's police. Whether we do it for self interest(oil) or because we feel morally obligated to assist, we do it because it is our role in society.

In the immortal words of Uncle Ben, "With great power, comes great responsibility."

I just disagree with how we did it. It needs to be an international task, not just America. Sure other countries are included in our "mother of all coalitions", but it has been America that picked this fight.

Unfortunately, I believe choosing Iraq as our next task to police the world, was motivated by self interest. There really can't be too much debating that one. No WMD, and now we know there really wasn't and credible intelligence saying there was. And now Exxon comes out and tells us that they had the most profitable fiscal quarter for any buisness in America ever.

I too am not as politically knowledgeable as many on this site, and my above rant is more of me going on a continuous train of thought trying to make sense of what I feel. I suppose in the end, I am unhappy with how America has handled itself, but I also recognize that their are international pressures to do something.

27. Posted by applegirl (Full Member 144 posts) 10y

Quoting wouterrr

It seems that you are very anti-american applegirl!!! So you are actually saying that its our own fault that Al-quaida is terrorising the west?

I'm very anti the US government yes.
And for your record Al-Quaida was invented in a court room in New York - please do try to get your hands on a very interesting BBC documentary called 'The power of nightmares' you will learn a lot about American 'neo-conservatism' aswell as who helped Bin Laden him to get to where he is today.

To say that the States have done a lot of good for the world economy is a big joke in my opinion, and a sad one :(

28. Posted by Sam I Am (Admin 5588 posts) 10y

Quoting applegirl

Quoting wouterrr

It seems that you are very anti-american applegirl!!! So you are actually saying that its our own fault that Al-quaida is terrorising the west?

I'm very anti the US government yes.
And for your record Al-Quaida was invented in a court room in New York - please do try to get your hands on a very interesting BBC documentary called 'The power of nightmares' you will learn a lot about American 'neo-conservatism' aswell as who helped Bin Laden him to get to where he is today.

To say that the States have done a lot of good for the world economy is a big joke in my opinion, and a sad one :(

Just because one documentary or book says something doesn't always make it true either! Books that others read will be the total opposite of what you read, but you can't pick and choose those books that you read or documentaries that you watch as being correct over those that others read and watch.... that's just not the way the media works! In fact, one big blessing of the States is 'starting' the internet which leads to more open conversations between people in different countries on forums just like this one; without the media creating an opinion for both sides necessarily.... how does that figure into the picture?

I'd recommend the Business Week, European edition for a few weeks and you'll see how reliant the world is on America and it's economy.... if Greenspan sneezes, the stock markets in London and Tokyo move :) Maybe sad, but definitely not a bit joke!

29. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 10y

Sam and John...very well said. Travis, wow, summed it up perfectly, with more political wisdom than you might assume.

I am also tired of many people in the world pointing their fingers and saying "bad America, and bad Americans". Does everybody in their country think alike? Did everybody vote for the same candidate? Does the whole country think alike? That's hardly the case here in America. Good luck getting much of a consensus on most anything, except, oddly enough, charity. What would the rest of the world do without US Dollars? Hasn't the lions share of relief donations after various natural disasters (elsewhere) come from here, even after our own natural disasters pulled billions out of our pockets? Sure, there are ugly, brutal minds here, but is your house clean? Not every American supports our government blindly. There are millions of sensient caring souls here.

As to the global economy, sure, there is corruption, on ALL sides. But are you willing to give up on it completely? You would have to close your borders to everything at that point, and your citizens would suffer for it. If you want to change something, never fight the fight from the outside. Get in the middle and get dirty. Don't just stand on a stump and accuse. Clean your house first, then you can critisize your neighbor's messy house.

To those people that consider the US to be a great evil, here's a proposition: visit here and meet the people. If we can't change your mind, then you can go back home and tell the world how bad we are.

But never again purchase another Coca-Cola.

Whew, sorry about that. I just can't stand hypocrisy.

30. Posted by john7buck (Respected Member 458 posts) 10y

Going back to religion, because I think that was the topic here. Does anybody know if there's ever been a Buddhist terrorist attack? Man, I think they're really the only ones who seem to be onto the true roots of religion. I grew up Catholic, and when I was travelling I read a book by the Dalai Lama. Interesting enough, I was about to purchase "Dude, Where's My Country" when I realized I'd heard enough about how shit the world is and wanted read something nice about it instead. The whole time I was reading I just kept thinking 'now this sounds a lot like what I grew up listening to in church, but it never seemed to hold true the second people stepped out of those doors'.

I'm not saying we all need to run out and become Buddhists (not sure I have the discipline myself), but it would be nice if people would have the balls to hold to the convictions that their own religions are actually trying to hold them to.

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