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Islam and terror

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31. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 10y

First of all, great thread. Second of all, I havn't had a coca-cola in a very long time (Or a coke product, exept a Dasani a few months ago because there was no other water around at the time).

I agree with what is being said - there are faults in every area of the world. We are all responsible for the outcome. Deeds of good and evil, and I use those terms losely, come from all over. I think everyone here for the most part are in agreement. We can all agree that war is not desired. That killing is not the way to save lives.

The problem with the United States is it's forceful will upon everyone else. They claim freedom and decmocracy, yet hold prisoners with out charge in Cuba. They claim law and order, yet have the CIA running covert prison systems in Eastern Europe. They claim free trade yet don't follow their own tariff laws within NAFTA. They claim world security and safety yet proclaim that if you are not with them you are against them.

My point is the world has a problem with the United States because they do not practice what they preach. Granted most countries, people, do not. They are in the spot light though, and everyone is watching.

As soon as the U.S.A. used terror as their motive for attack we saw conflicts arise around the world. Russia attacked Chechnya with renewed vigor in the name of fighting terror. Kings, Presidents, Prime Ministers, Warlords, they are all using the U.S.A as their example.

I agree, for too long has everyone sat idle on the side lines, pointing fingers and calling bad plays when they are not even in the game. People across the board complain about the governments and corruption... do we, or do we not live in democratic societies? We can make the changes if we lose the apathy.

Yes, I am picking on the United States, because it is the country by wich all others are judged.

The idea that we should be thankful for the corporation and the United States economic "prowess" is scary. Yes, much like their political policies, any economic happenings in the U.S. effects the world. But there are other ways to manage the commodities for example: True Cost Economics.

I guess the overall point that I try to make is let us look past the status quo, I think the grass is actaully greener on the other side.

32. Posted by john7buck (Respected Member 458 posts) 10y

Again, I take issue with the word THEY.

33. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 10y

Quoting john7buck

I'm not saying we all need to run out and become Buddhists (not sure I have the discipline myself), but it would be nice if people would have the balls to hold to the convictions that their own religions are actually trying to hold them to.

First I don't think it is about discipline, and more to with a general caring for everyone and everying around you. That would be the goal anyway.

Other than that I agree completly, if people followed what was actaully writtin in the Books things would be better off. But... and I say that with not a complete understanding, there are condradictions in the Bible.

BEASTS

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

GOOD DEEDS

Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)

So I mean, it's hard to follow the convictions of a religion when it contradicts itself.

34. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 10y

Quoting john7buck

Again, I take issue with the word THEY.

As in by THEY I mean the United States and everyone in it?

35. Posted by john7buck (Respected Member 458 posts) 10y

Not sure how to interpret your question mark.

All I am saying is this. I was born here. To my knowledge I haven't held anybody against their will in a prison camp, bombed anybody, or whatever the hell else you are saying I have done. The only president I have voted for that made it into office was Bill Clinton. Granted you can say some stuff about him too, but come on, you get my point.

I mean if you want to throw out comments like that join the bloodbath Canada, we're all Indian killers as it is anyway.

36. Posted by TKolb325 (Full Member 197 posts) 10y

Please keep in mind that saying "they" implies all Americans, and that isn't fair to make such a generalization.

I do not support my President, or his policies, and if you look at the approval ratings of Bush from Americans, you would see that the majority of America does not either.

It is better to refer to the problems created by this administration as such. Problems created by the administration. Not by the American people.

It honestly feels like a loop-hole in the voting process(electoral college) has let loose a runaway train using religion, patriotism and paranoia as its fuel.

But I don't speak for everyone, and this is just my view on what is happening in this crazy country.

I am proud to be an American, cause the USA stands for something. It stands for an ideal, a dream. Unfortunately that ideal is misguided by powerful men that are only concerned with their own adgenda.

37. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 10y

I see the point you two make, and yes it is the government that is making the decisions. But I use "they" on purpose. Because although you may not support the current administration you still are a citizen of that country. And last time I checked the United States is a democratic republic.

It is in my view that if the leadership is doing wrong the fault lies with the people of that country (In a democracy) because they are the ones who gave them the power.

And yes Canada has it's share of blood baths too, I agree. As does the UK, Australia, Spain, France, Germany, etcetera. We all do. And now is the time to correct these faults and problems not create new ones. The Canadian government is corrupt as the United Statesian, let's start by taking care of that.

...My point would be, we all see problems with our leadership, let's not point fingers and blame them, we are the ones who put them there. We are the ones in control. If we are not in control then perhaps we should re-evaluate democracy.

38. Posted by Sam I Am (Admin 5588 posts) 10y

Quoting Brendan

I see the point you two make, and yes it is the government that is making the decisions. But I use "they" on purpose. Because although you may not support the current administration you still are a citizen of that country. And last time I checked the United States is a democratic republic.

It is in my view that if the leadership is doing wrong the fault lies with the people of that country (In a democracy) because they are the ones who gave them the power.

And yes Canada has it's share of blood baths too, I agree. As does the UK, Australia, Spain, France, Germany, etcetera. We all do. And now is the time to correct these faults and problems not create new ones. The Canadian government is corrupt as the United Statesian, let's start by taking care of that.

...My point would be, we all see problems with our leadership, let's not point fingers and blame them, we are the ones who put them there. We are the ones in control. If we are not in control then perhaps we should re-evaluate democracy.

You can't honestly be serious can you Brendan?

If I am totally oposed to a party/person and they still end up in the government because a majority (of those that actually bother voting) gets him/her there, then it is I that put them there????

39. Posted by applegirl (Full Member 144 posts) 10y

Quoting beerman

To those people that consider the US to be a great evil, here's a proposition: visit here and meet the people. If we can't change your mind, then you can go back home and tell the world how bad we are.

I don't know why you take it personally that people critisise the government in your country, why do you??
Maybe it's a cultural thing, in Europe we separate the people and government (at least everyone I've met so far!) but perhaps in the States you don't.
Keep in mind that here we do so whenever we criticise your or anyone elses government please don't take it personally.

And by the way what has coca-cola got to do with this discussion? How can a discussion about war and terrorism end up with coca-cola??
Some (far from all!) of you americans identify too much with your national brands - no offence but it's not good you do, and a bit weird to me.

Quoting Sam I am

Just because one documentary or book says something doesn't always make it true either! Books that others read will be the total opposite of what you read, but you can't pick and choose those books that you read or documentaries that you watch as being correct over those that others read and watch.... that's just not the way the media works!

What you're saying here is that neither of us can trust our sorces of information?

I think it's good to get your information from various perspectives - and perhaps is it only then that we can start to see the truth. Sadly much of the information in mainstream media is completely coloured by big Western corporations or Mr Murdoch.
Al Jazeera (arabic tv-station) was bombed in Baghdad by Americans when they were showing images of Iraqi casualties, dead children and so on - why? Because the Americans thought they were too 'biased' when they reported about Iraqi civilian deaths.
(Btw, the Americans claimed it was an 'accident' but this was AFTER they had critisied Al - Jazeera heavily for their coverage of the war)
It's hard to imagine Arabs bombing CNN or any american tv-station for being to 'biased' when covering 9/11.

Quoting Sam I am

In fact, one big blessing of the States is 'starting' the internet which leads to more open conversations between people in different countries on forums just like this one; without the media creating an opinion for both sides necessarily.... how does that figure into the picture?

And now, sadly, the governments wants to curb free speach and information. And the companies wants to monopolise it...
Internet is truly great, but it has become something that is seen as a threat by many governments because they can't control it.
And if it's something they want it's control. Blair is very disappointed that his suggestion to be able to hold a person in custody without charge for 90 days didn't go through - if it would have done so that would have been a big farwell to human rights laws which many western countries have taken a great pride in.

But I don't think it's all bad and miserable in the world - the truth is that there is also a lot of positive stuff going on; more and more people who start to question the motifs behind wars, terrorism and so on.
Take this thread as an example.

40. Posted by Peter (Admin 5789 posts) 10y

Quoting Brendan

Quoting john7buck

I'm not saying we all need to run out and become Buddhists (not sure I have the discipline myself), but it would be nice if people would have the balls to hold to the convictions that their own religions are actually trying to hold them to.

First I don't think it is about discipline, and more to with a general caring for everyone and everying around you. That would be the goal anyway.

Other than that I agree completly, if people followed what was actaully writtin in the Books things would be better off. But... and I say that with not a complete understanding, there are condradictions in the Bible.

BEASTS

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

GOOD DEEDS

Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)

So I mean, it's hard to follow the convictions of a religion when it contradicts itself.

Hmm, I don't actually see contradictions in those verses. Giving without expecting a reward or praise to me is not mutually exclusive to setting an example for others through good deeds. One verse is about deeds, the other about gifts. They shouldn't be seen as the same, though in our western way of thinking they unfortunately often are.

Likewise, the beast verses only serve to make me believe that it is humankind's responsiblity to look after other creatures of the earth. That's just one reason why I believe environmental issues should rank much higher in christians' thinking.

That's not to say there aren't many other verses where I could find contradictions. Particularly when it comes to comparing the old testament to the new testament. To me, that's proof that christianity is able to evolve and adapt culturally and shouldn't only be judged by what was written 2 thousand years ago.

Ok, I'll get off the pedestal now Maybe time for a chorus!

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