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Islam and terror

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91. Posted by Sam I Am (Admin 5588 posts) 11y

Quoting Brendan

If we were to abandon the stock exchanges there would be problems. In the short term. Things would recover and evolve. It just comes back to the status quo. People are frightened by the unknown. If they have no knowledge of a situation in their brain to refer to they get scared, and panic.

Far easier to stay with what you know.

I'm afraid this is not that easy by a LONG shot.... the stock market is a natural evolution of a society in which people own something. It's just a place where shares in companies are traded. If you do away with the stock exchanges people would still own shares in businesses (like Pete and me in Travellerspoint for example...) and like it or not, businesses need to be sold/bought every now and then (just like the house you live in gets sold/bought at times), for various reasons. Doing away with the stock market is doing away with the place where the banks trade their money, the same banks that you and your parents save at and have mortgages at. It would mean the end of your and your parents/friends/family's savings/house etc. etc. You mention evolving which is human nature. We evolve in the way that is most beneficial to us, and that has taken us here, so there is a reason for where we are today! If you do away with everything, it will just evolve back to something similar, unless you manage to also change human nature and make us not always be looking for what is best for ourselves and those we love. I can guarantee you if you have a family that you'll be looking out for them and trying to provide for them. Work, companies and the ownership of those companies are part of that cycle.

I admire you as being an idealist, but idealism only works if there is a way that the human brain can comprehend it. That's why Bob Geldhoff has done so much good; he has actually come up with idealistic goals, but they're acheivable! Otherwise, we could start making up stories about living on the sun; probably just as likely...

92. Posted by applegirl (Full Member 144 posts) 11y

I think we're losing focus here, this is not about the stock exchange as a market place. This about how the market in itself make corporations behave.

The focus should be on the practice that companies are forces to make short term profits and sacrifice long term investments to please the share holders and potentional stock buyers. This makes it more profitable to burn a food surplus and leave millions of people starve to death, than to feed these people.

93. Posted by wotthefiqh (Inactive 1447 posts) 11y

Islam is not a religion.
It is a template for the total and brutally coercive organization of
society, encompassing laws for birth, death, marriage, divorce,
inheritance, commerce, dress, diet, prayer, war, relations between the sexes, etc.
Islamic values were set in stone in the 7th century AD and cannot be
changed.
The idea of Man’s Law (democracy) is anathema to the conservative moslem faithful who believe that only Sharia (God’s Law) should rule humanity.
It accepts no criticism (the murdered Theo van Gogh), no supposed insult (the fatwad Salman Rushdie) and no calls for reform or modernization.
In July 2003 Afghanistan's Supreme Court issued the death penalty for
blasphemy to the editor of a Kabul newspaper for asking in an editorial the question ‘Why, after 1,400 years of Islam, is there no sign of progress or development in Muslim society?’.
In 2000 liberal Iranian shia cleric Hassan Yousefi-Eshkavari was
arrested for apostasy and sentenced to death. His crime was to recommend that the wearing of the veil should be optional and that all Islamic principles related to social issues be reviewed and brought into line with modern society.
Irshad Manji, Canadian lesbian Moslem writer, wrote a book called ‘The Trouble With Islam’, and a number of moslem clerics have issued fatwas (religious rulings) calling for her murder.
Iranian ayatollahs regularly incite the faithful to demonstrate in the streets after Friday prayer, screaming ‘Death to America, Death to the Great Satan’, and this has been going on for 25 years.
From a 21st century liberal democratic perspective, Islam is a btutal medieval tyrannical society ruled by clerics.
Peace and Tolerance ? Bullshit!

Anthony

94. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 11y

Quoting applegirl

The focus should be on the practice that companies are forces to make short term profits and sacrifice long term investments to please the share holders and potentional stock buyers.

I agree with that. And Sam I agree I did simplify and I suppose I am an idealist. Better an idealist than a nihilist . And yes I know what you mean how if we just dismantle our current society it would soon rebuild itself in the same fashion. Changing the thought process would have more an impact than changing the stock market.

And I think it is possible. I think at some point, the majority, if not all people will over time come to a realisation. I guess that realisation would include compassion, selflessness, disenchantment.

By compassion I mean a more complete state of compassion. Take the love you have for your family, your children, your dog, your cat, and channel and expand that compassion to all life. Do not discriminate against life.

By selflessness, more than the selflessness people carry out for the "their" loved ones. People have unconditional love for their cat, for their children. And will do anything to help/protect them. If we expand on that and once again stop discriminating against life.

By disenchantment I mean walking through and past the fog over our eyes. When you are standing in thick fog you can only see perhaps only an arms length away. Similar to life we only truely see that which is in our grasp. What if people made the effort to reach out into the fog, go through it, and perhaps come into a clearing. Too metephorical? haha

Quoting Sam I Am

I can guarantee you if you have a family that you'll be looking out for them and trying to provide for them. Work, companies and the ownership of those companies are part of that cycle.

This is my point Sam, people like me, idealists if you need a label. Are looking out for others. We care about our family's and want them to have a safe world to live in, along with everyone else. Applegirl's concern is that there are people being exploited by the stock exchange, this doesn't mean she doesn't care for her family and friends but that her caring goes beyond that to encompass a larger spectrum of people, and people she doesn't even know.

But I guess we could keep going the way we are, having children just because nature intends it, then buying all kinds of junk for the babies, and then start advertising to the baby's to buy their own crap. Then we need need to invest in the stock market for some reason. Then we need to work a crap job so we can make the car payments and the house payments and the interest payments and the payment payments.

Wow that sounds great! Good thing we are doing that already...

Peace out!

95. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 11y

Anthony, those are some interesting points against Islam, but I think that is more again to do with human nature than Islam itself. Even with all of what you said Islam is still a religion.

Quoting re-li-gion

1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Nothing about peace and tolerance having to be in a religion. Most of them don't.

96. Posted by cikusang (Respected Member 1361 posts) 11y

From a 21st century liberal democratic perspective, Islam is a btutal medieval tyrannical society ruled by clerics.
Peace and Tolerance ? Bullshit!

My dear friend, this thread has been 'monitored' by many viewers from all around the world. Hence, every word and terms usage should be taken into serious consideration, before we are about to decode our thoughts. I am neither a professional journalist nor a linguist, but what I etch in my mind is I should be responsible for every word I speak because "one can bloom the fragrance of flowers or spitting the venomous snakes from our mouth" - stick that to every viewer, please.

"Finger-pointing at somebody with 3 fingers heading to ourselves back'

Do you know how your statement may have arouse the dissatisfactory among some of the Islamic believers here perhaps? Never had in your mind how far the impact of the word 'brutal' and 'tyrannical' would go beyond? Don't you ever know how controversial of one of the US Radio DJ months ago had flammed the issue of racism after misusing of certain terms? Remember the arsonism act in Paris and did of the goverment officer had AGAIN misused the art of speech and the situation in Paris is getting worse currently?

Mind you, there's certain clergymen and religion leaders in this world (past and contemporary) are upholding to the Old teaching, regardless of whatever religion and other spiritual groups and how far do you think yourself has got all the religions in this world understood by every single word and concepts accurately?

Do you think WE, with only a pair of eyes and two long legs and with an usage of our brain's volume less than 10% could ever come up with the most perfect idea? The globe is turning and time is only 24 hours per day left for all of us and what have you done to the outside world? Perhaps many of them who are not viewing this thread are working very hard out of this site helping other people, as they have no time to hate or accuse of unpalatable ideas, for them, it's a waste of time)

I do not mean to put anyone here into the harsh state but bear in mind that words could be killing; "A Letter to Garcia" has been labelled as one of the classic, why? Because characteristics implied in the messenger, in our eyes, are almost coming to an extiction. A messanger who could exactly convey to the listener of exactly of what he knew and without additonal plus-and-minor. Everyone of us knows how dangerous and vulnerable a text could be deterred and moreover, have the concepts twisted themselves.

This is why Brenden and Apple (Brenden is encouraging us to think and act intellectually, any aspect could be philosophically provoked)are so-called by some of us 'idealist'. Aren't every one of us are hoping for love and gaiety? That's when the element of being 'idealist' inside everyone of us inspires us to react according to our basic instinct - love and caring for anything. With this inspiring spirits and thoughts, it would anyhow widen and provoke our thinking. Because we love them, that's why we think of them in many ways to help and make the world better and because of the past idealists, we have Albert Eisntein, Mother Theresa, Gandhi and many more to contribute a better completion. That's why the book "The Little Prince" has captured hearts of many decades, because we see ourselves 'le petite prince' in everyone of us.

Another inspiring character - Harold Pinter (the writer for The French Lieutenant's Woman) has recently stood up and stressed that he would like to undercover the tacts played by both the leaders of US and UK of deterring the exact terms of freedom, liberty and democracy, at the age of 70s. Many elitist and intelligentsia amused at him of "what suppose you can do to change the world?". Pinter smiled and said,"I rather die than living in the world without knowing which one is right or wrong, even not able to believe of everyday's of what I see, hear and read.; During my time, we know warring is bad but NOW we do not know is it ever a thing to be evaluated.'

From the starting post by wouter about Islam, terrorism till now - again, what makes all this happened is because we thought idealistic has being a past and thus adapting ourselves to the realistics but we know we are looking for idealism and idealism could become a realistic, if we believe. (that's why the children literature provokes and awakes us our 'little prince' but many adults take it as 'nay! too naive or 'it's kids stuffs')

For anyone who still keep pointing to whom to be blamed, I tell you, you are contributing to the atmosphere of 'detestation and toxification' - you are not much different to those who kill the innocents apart from the way you use 'discouragement and degradation' to expel the idealism and inspiring characters not bombing or arsonism acts (for instance).

If many of us are having partly of our 'idealism' died and even vanished, what could you leave for the younger generation who will going to lead the coming world? We die sooner than them but what have we done to our younger ones?

Think of this point, and not only for once. Look at the toddlers' eyes and their smiling faces, all of the confusion in this thread would be answered.

"You smiled because you had found something which is idealistic, and it does make you happy, right?'

97. Posted by Peter (Admin 5809 posts) 11y

I wish we had a muslim on here to answer this question from their knowledge of the Koran. But I do know that I have heard many muslim leaders denounce the extremist elements as un-islamic. The examples you mention Anthony, seem extremist to me and unlikely to be what most muslims believe.

98. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 11y

I really liked your post cikusang. And in short I agree that idealism can become a reality if people would stop saying "it isn't the real world".

99. Posted by leia (Budding Member 22 posts) 11y

Okey Dokey peoples lets calm down a tad....

I'm not religious in any conventional form so my view is based purely as an outsider.

Every nation and religion has been engaged in warfare in one form or another. What we as western society see as terrorism is merely another type of war but one that has been ongoing now since the man began. The wars between Christians and Moslems however was instigated by the Christians in teh 11th century. Something called the crusades, anyone remember? It was a glorious thing for a Christian to go to Jerusalem in order to restore it to it's 'rightful' owners the Christians. Bullshit, it was an important strategic point for world domination as all major civilisations have known since the Greeks. It was essentially a grab for land under the guise of religious sanctification. Much death has been caused in teh name of Christianity and Democracy as well. Probably more when you factor in last centuries wars.

Now Bush [both] blew up Iraq. And most of the time the soldiers were not even in the country. They blew them up from a distance. it is sort of cowardly to send a rocket into supposed targets from 100's of miles away. i'm not happy with our national policy in this war either but it is no good for every one to start saying that terrorists are ruining the world and that islam is bad etc because to do so we are saying the same about ourselves cos we are definaetly killing innocent people too, both directly and indirectly.

Think of it this way, To them WE are the terrorists

and it won't be resolved until someone wins cos the winners write the history books.

100. Posted by applegirl (Full Member 144 posts) 11y

Thanks for good posts Brendan and cikusang.

Really liked this:

Quoting cikusang

If many of us are having partly of our 'idealism' died and even vanished, what could you leave for the younger generation who will going to lead the coming world? We die sooner than them but what have we done to our younger ones?

Think of this point, and not only for once. Look at the toddlers' eyes and their smiling faces, all of the confusion in this thread would be answered.

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