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131. Posted by TKolb325 (Full Member 197 posts) 10y

I know what you are saying tway. Some people are very emotional, and some are not. While one person may immediately want the death penalty for one crime, a different person may just want jail time. The reason for the differ in desire, is due to how powerful of an emotional reaction one has to the crime. Emotions have no place in court. The only inspiration for a "punishment" should be logic, and ability to prevent further incidents.

So we typically say that the DP is revenge, and not prevention for further incidents. But it is hard to say, because no matter what precautions we take murders will be commited, so we can never really eliminate the desire to kill. All we can do is try to deter those people from following through with the murders. And the most powerful tool we have in determent, is to end someone's life if they do not comply with the rules.

So is that the right way to deter murders? I don't know. I am a pole-sitter, as much as I hate pole-sitters. All I know, is that DP or not, murders have happened, are happening, and will always happen. The only way I can think of solving this problem, is to better educate the average murderer on why murder is not the correct resolution to a problem. But who knows if that is possible.

Hmm. Originally I posted this post just to mention how much I hate overly emotional people like the person from tways story, but now it turned into a rant. Oh well, that seems to be the theme by TP Off Topic.;)

132. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 10y

Quoting TKolb325

So is that the right way to deter murders? I don't know. I am a pole-sitter, as much as I hate pole-sitters.

Travis, you can share my pole if you want. Like you, I'm not keen on pole-sitters, but here I am - sitting smack-dab on top of one.

133. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 10y

Quoting Isadora

Travis, you can share my pole if you want. Like you, I'm not keen on pole-sitters, but here I am - sitting smack-dab on top of one.

I've been a pole-sitter all my life. And I'm proud of it! No doubt it comes from being a Gemini and, if you believe the proficiency tests, left and right brain dominant. I think that's the way most people are by nature, in reality. It's our way of psychologically dealing with the complexities of real life. We've learned to switch modes depending on the situation. However, there's a lot of social pressure to be one thing or the other. People accuse you of being indecisive when in reality you're trying to decide on the best course of action for the situation. To me, it's not so important whether you are for or against something, but where you put your fence line and how you use your intellect to put that fence line where it is (slipping into metaphors for a moment).

Quoting tway

Why? Because everyone has different reactions to different situations, and some people are more 'in touch' with their emotions than others.

Nice spew, Tway! I can see this being a frustration. I can't imagine that this would be too useful in team building. You can't allow emotion to completely run your life. That just throws you off balance, and those around you as well. I think it's fine to be completely emotional when the situation calls for it or when you're completely alone, but when other people are counting on you or what you're doing affects other people, then they need to be more balanced. I'm surprised your bosses let them get away with this.

134. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 10y

Quoting SeeTheSky

Are you saying we don't need "justice" ?

and theres the problem. some say yes, some say no.

Missed this one.....I disagree. I think people have different defintions on what is fair and "just".

135. Posted by SeeTheSky (Respected Member 558 posts) 10y

justice is a human concept. its based on the fact that people decide what is 'just' or not, therefore its a human's descion on another human. its just a romantic notion of an easy answer to complex situations. thats like me telling you that what you're saying would be unjust becuase i believe it is, even though in your eyes it isn't.
you make your choices, and i make mine. thats what its all about.

this is just never going to end.

136. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 10y

I am not talking about raging emotions that take people over the edge, I am talking about the general emotions that run through everyone all of the time. You can't have a justice system void of emotion when that system is run by humans.

I disagree about your idea: that the system should be black and white, and everyone be subject to the same treatment. You can not have an impartial system when in the hands of humans, you said exactly why - we are unstable, wild, fickle, prone to change, and very, very different from one person to the next.

Right now the system looks at the "how". Person A killed Person B, therefore Person A must die. What we need is a system that not only looks at the "how" but also the "why". Why did Person A kill Person B, what lead them to do this and will they do it again?

I know you are going to say that it is based on why, but it really isn't. No one cares why, only how.

And like STS says, this will never end because we all hold our beliefs, and they are at a stage very hard to change and influence. What you call justice I call murder and vice versa.

137. Posted by summer910 (Respected Member 1342 posts) 10y

Why don't we all refrain from eating so that we don't "murder" the poor plants et al, hm? I'm sure the plants will be most pleased. This is justice for them!

138. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 10y

Quoting SeeTheSky

this is just never going to end.

That's right. And it probably should never end. We'll make mistakes, but you can't let that stop you. And we shouldn't ever stop trying to make the system better. For instance at one point laws were not written down, and juries where not used, and there was no concept of degrees of murder.

139. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 10y

Quoting summer910

Why don't we all refrain from eating so that we don't "murder" the poor plants et al, hm? I'm sure the plants will be most pleased. This is justice for them!

Clearly you are being sarcastic, never the less I think that it makes for a poor argument. First of all to me it isn't so much about taking the "life" of a person, because then you would be right - how can we take the lives of plants too. To me it is more about stopping this cycle of revenge.

we shouldn't ever stop trying to make the system better. For instance at one point laws were not written down, and juries where not used, and there was no concept of degrees of murder.

I like that a lot, and agree that we should not stop talking about things the way we are. And if more people did perhaps we could make things a bit better a bit quicker.

That always get's me thinking though, we talk about the advancement of the human-race, but to what end? What are we advancing towards. We are creating a more "just" system in which to live, we are living longer (in general), we have more knowledge (in general), we have space ships, and antibiotics... but to what end? What are we working towards? It keeps me up at night.

140. Posted by summer910 (Respected Member 1342 posts) 10y

Quoting Brendan

Clearly you are being sarcastic, never the less I think that it makes for a poor argument. First of all to me it isn't so much about taking the "life" of a person, because then you would be right - how can we take the lives of plants too. To me it is more about stopping this cycle of revenge.

Of course I'm being sarcastic. And it wasn't for the sake of arguing. I'm just tired of you waxing philosophical and staying up there on your moralistic high horse without bothering to see where others are coming from. Not everyone lives by your standards or philosophies. Things don't miraculously work just because you happen to like looking at the world through rose-tinted glasses. There are rules and systems in place for deterrence of crime, and just because you don't like them doesn't mean you get snippy on those who happen to think they work, the way you've been giving some people here the third degree. Maybe you can see that when you're done living in your own utopia.

Happy dreaming.

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