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Str8, Gay and what ever in between

Travel Forums Off Topic Str8, Gay and what ever in between

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31. Posted by Cupcake (Travel Guru 8468 posts) 10y

Quoting john7buck

I'm not going to argue any grand philosophical beliefs here about what I THINK is right or wrong, but what bothers me the most is that government (mine for example) spends so much Fing time worrying about this. Seriously, don't we have enough of an unbelievable mess on our hands that pissing away time trying to prevent John and Joe from getting married is not only utterly useless, but also completely absurd?

Thanks John, you have pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter. :)
and Mike? Thought provocing post, Thanks to you too!

32. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 10y

Quoting Q_Zhang

One thing that does bother me is that there's not a lot of social norms about gays & lesbians. I have no idea how I should act around gays. There's a distinct psychological difference between men and women. Open any magazine, TV station, radio station, book or what have you, and you'll get bombarded with commentaries on how a "girl" should behave and how a "boy" should behave and how we should behave towards each other. Which is nice, since if I don't know the person, I can fall back on these cliches until I know them better. Makes it harder for me to get to know a gay person socially.

I find your comment interesting, yet a bit hard to understand. I would suggest acting exactly the same way you would with anyone, whether they are gay, straight or bi-sexual. I'm sure you don't begin most conversations with, "How's your girlfriend?" Correct? And, I have found that being true to your own personal behavior patterns works well in the majority of situations. If someone is gay, they rarely want you to act differently than you would if they were straight. Changing your behavior makes both of you uncomfortable and there's no need for it. Someone's sexuality does not define that person completely, it is just one part of the whole picture. Just be yourself, that's all.

What I also find interesting is the immediate negative response of heterosexuals when approached by someone who is gay. ("Approached" as in the display of interest in someone as a perspective "date".) Whether straight or gay, the fact that someone found you good-looking and/or interesting enough to take that first step is a form of flattery. A simple, and kind, response stating your personal preference is usually more than enough to end the situation. My personal experience has proven this to be true (for me) and had I been rude about it, I would have missed out on some really wonderful friendships.

Gay marriages have my wholehearted support. We have friends who have been a couple for over 20 years. Why should they not have the same legal rights of marriage that I have been granted? The majority of gay couples are in stable, long-term relationships and seeking a legally binding union, not one sanctioned by God. Throwing God into the equation is, once again, forcing the church vs. state issue. Most gay and straight marriages really have very little to do with religion anymore. If God is so against homosexuality, he will punish those who engage in it in his own way. Who are we to make those decisions for him/her? Equality should be equality across the board - in and out of the bedroom.

Personally, I don't give a damn about the "more disposable income" or the "joint insurance coverage" or any other issue, on that level, that gay marriages provide. Someone could say the same about me, since neither of us have had any children and I do not hold a job outside the home. Should we not have been allowed to marry because it's taking advantage of the system? (I forgot, it's okay because we are heterosexual.) Rarely are these the motivating circumstances for gay marriages. Instesad, they are fueled by the love and respect for another human being, and the income, etc. are just some of those perks even heterosexual couples enjoy. (Again, I have a friend who entered into a heterosexual marriage for the sake of health insurance. They had been a couple for years, but when she became very ill with no health care coverage, they tied the knot.)

On that note... Because gay couples do not have children, they have all this extra income to spend on themselves. Well, that does not take into consideration the number of gay couples adopting children. That puts a crimp in that theory. Though several states do not allow gay couples to adopt children, gay adoptions are on the rise and thankfully so. A number of states that do allow gay adoptions also have strict regulations on the type/age of the children available to couples. This means that couples are adopting a large number of the children that the heterosexual couples have dismissed as unadoptable (ie: too old, incorrigible, HIV-positive, disabled, etc.). So far, the statistics show that children raised in gay households are well-adjusted, healthy, happy and loving individuals. They also do not "become gay" just because their parent's sexual preferences. Being an adopted child, I am exceptionally please to see any child in need of a home, accepted into one - gay or straight.

33. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 10y

Quoting vegasmike6

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
Why can't I own Canadians?

And here we were willing to buy Tina, Quan and Brendan... Damn!!!

34. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 10y

Quoting Isadora

Quoting vegasmike6

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
Why can't I own Canadians?

And here we were willing to buy Tina, Quan and Brendan... Damn!!!

And make me live in a house with... cats!!??? GACK! HACK! SNEEZE!

35. Posted by summer910 (Respected Member 1342 posts) 10y

I pretty much agree with Isa's post. I am also in favour of same-sex marriages, and I fail to see what is so wrong with it. I have friends who are gay, and who have struggled with their sexual orientation before finally becoming comfortable with what they are, and I think it's not healthy to stick square pegs into round holes. We're too used to a heterosexual society to accept anything different, but homosexuals are people as well, and there is no need to treat them as if they're the plague. Imagine if heterosexuals were the minority... how would you like to be treated?

Re the point Isa brought up about gay couples adopting, I agree that children brought up by gay couples do not "become gay" just because of their parents' sexual preferences. There's also the point to remember that homosexuals also come from heterosexual families, and that the church, while being one of the biggest denouncers of homosexuality, also has its fair share of problems with paedophilia (so really, it's the pot calling the kettle black).

Clearly, tolerance is still very much an ideal in today's society.

36. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 10y

You've hit the nail on the head with "I would suggest acting exactly the same way you would with anyone". I don't treat men and women the same. Where do gays and lesbians fit in ? Are they male or female or some other social group?

I will hug a woman on a first meeting if we've gotten along well on our first meeting. I will not do that with a guy no matter how well we've gotten along. Do I hug a gay man or do I shake his hand ? Do I hug a lesbian woman or do I shake their hand ?

I have an odd personal habit. On a first meeting, I will make an effort to look a woman in the eyes as much as I can until I know her better. But I won't with a man (a habit I picked up from a prof of mine). Where do I look with a gay man ?

No matter how well I know them, I will give a little pat on the hand of a woman when I'm discussing something personal or troubling or when I feel she needs it. I won't with a man. What do I do with a gay man or lesbian woman?

There's a huge list of these things. There's also differences between individual gay men and lesbian women as well; as there are differences between individual heterosexual women and men. Somethings that I "normally" do around a woman I won't with some women. But, I have the assurance that even if I misread the woman, the social faux pas can be quickly brushed aside because we both know that I'm just acting according to the social norms. A mistake with a gay man will take longer to figure out how to interpret, lacking social norms. The other element are the people around you. Again it's socially acceptable to do certain things around a person of the same sex or opposite sex, and again it's more difficult to correct misinterpretations in behaviour. It'll get corrected eventually, but it could be easier if gays and lesbians were more integrated into society.

>Whether straight or gay, the fact that someone found you good-looking and/or interesting enough to >take that first step is a form of flattery.

I have, and would. Always be polite when turning someone down, male or female.

>Throwing God into the equation is, once again, forcing the church vs. state issue.

My stake in the ground is that I don't really care if gay marriage is legal or not. Religion is more problematic because you can't really call up God and ask what his decision is. :-)

>Personally, I don't give a damn about the "more disposable income" or the "joint insurance coverage" or any other issue, on that level, that gay marriages provide.

But some people do....

>(Again, I have a friend who entered into a heterosexual marriage for the sake of health insurance. They had been a couple for years, but when she became very ill with no health care coverage, they tied the knot.)

Exactly...

Personally, I think the litmus test should be whether you care and love each other and are willing to form a loving and supportive union. But practically, it's harder to work that out when there are financial, religious and legal issues involved.

37. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 10y

Quoting Isadora

And here we were willing to buy Tina, Quan and Brendan... Damn!!!

From what you've told me, I do believe I make more than you and Beerman combined.

38. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 10y

Quoting Q_Zhang

Quoting Isadora

And here we were willing to buy Tina, Quan and Brendan... Damn!!!

From what you've told me, I do believe I make more than you and Beerman combined.

Most everyone makes more than Beerman and me combined!!! But, in the slave trade, you don't negotiate the price with the "slavee". So, we buy you cheap, give you room, board and clothing for services rendered (no - not those services) - more like luggage wrangler, etc.) and we get to focus on fun things.

Isa returns this thread to it's originally scheduled topic and will respond, after more thought, to the comments at hand.

39. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 10y

Quoting Q_Zhang

You've hit the nail on the head with "I would suggest acting exactly the same way you would with anyone". I don't treat men and women the same. Where do gays and lesbians fit in ? Are they male or female or some other social group?

I would assume that a woman is a woman - and a man is a man - regardless of if they are gay or straight. Is there really a third option? Or are you talking about "flamboyantly gay" individuals, men who exhibit more 'female' characteristics, and vice versa?

Personally, I've known women who are too cold to open up to, and men who you could sit and chat with for hours about the most personal things. For me, how I interact with someone depends on the vibe I get from them, as opposed to their sex.

40. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 10y

Has anyone ever seen a group of Gays (Flock? Gaggle? Troop?) protesting that Heteros can't practice marriage and live a life of their own choosing, or try to convince them that their Hetero lifestyle is an abomination and shouldn't be allowed?

Why is it that some Heteros feel the need to take the "moral high ground" and actually try to prevent people from living their natural lives?

Who has the moral authority to say that they are a better person than their neighbor?

Beerman steps off the mountain with the 11th Commandment in his hands....."Thou Shalt Mind Thine Own Damned Business"......and looks for another Sermon to question......