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Good Luck Italy!

Travel Forums Off Topic Good Luck Italy!

1. Posted by coldwarspy (Travel Guru 1108 posts) 10y

Well from what I have read about Berlusconi, I hope you guys make the right choice. His language and his politics seem to be too close to the likes of the Republicans in the US - "coglioni" -> Dick Cheney "go f**k yourself" - for example.

2. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 10y

Considering that Berlusconi is behind in the (upcoming) election polls and has had corruption charges lodged against him - I'd say he's a bit "testy" at the moment.

3. Posted by Caesar (Full Member 74 posts) 10y

corruption charges never proven justified in years of trials
nobody could prove them true and no court has condamned him, despite using all means to destroy a political rival.
There's a legal principle in every modern democracy, recognised by any international pact and from european CEDU ( a document on Humna rights) and from our consitution as well: EVERYONE IS CONSIDERED INNOCENT UNTIL A DEFINITIVE CONDAMN IS PRONOUNCED. No courts condamned Berlusconi so he has all the rights to be considered innocent, wheter you like it or not.

do you think is it liberal trying to eliminate political rivals through the use of courts? when berlusconi wasn't on political scene the leftist-post communist parties tried to do the same with other political exponents. They use the criminal charges to influence elections even recently, they made a government fall in 1994, and those charges were proven once again FAKE.Have you ever heard of Sovietic "Prokuratura"? The agency led by the Communist Party that influenced every decision of Courts and used that power to eliminate political opposers ?Do you think this doesn't apply to Italy? Romano Prodi's well praised coalition has a major contingent of nostalgic communists (Communist refundation and Party of italian communists) with more than 8-9 % of consensus.

These judges use their power to influence politics, which is a illiberal thing typical of regimes, that breaks Montesquieu's Theory about the "Division of the 3 Powers", basement of every modern democracy.

4. Posted by coldwarspy (Travel Guru 1108 posts) 10y

wow - written like a law student :)

atleast you know ur history, most debates I have with right winged Americans end at "Oh Yeah, well, your a F*G"

But you are missing the point about politcis. NO President, PM, King, Politburu Member or whateva...needs to be ACTUALLY guilty of a crime or corruption. As long as he is assumed guilty, in the eyes of the voters its enough, he is in deep, hotwater, politically speaking.

And excuse my ignorance...I only know anythin since my GF is Italian, but you seem to be assuming his opposition is communist? From what I read in Time, The Economist, and from my GF, this doenst seem to be the case? is it?

5. Posted by Caesar (Full Member 74 posts) 10y

Quoting jeffG

wow - written like a law student :)

atleast you know ur history, most debates I have with right winged Americans end at "Oh Yeah, well, your a F*G"

But you are missing the point about politcis. NO President, PM, King, Politburu Member or whateva...needs to be ACTUALLY guilty of a crime or corruption. As long as he is assumed guilty, in the eyes of the voters its enough, he is in deep, hotwater, politically speaking.

And excuse my ignorance...I only know anythin since my GF is Italian, but you seem to be assuming his opposition is communist? From what I read in Time, The Economist, and from my GF, this doenst seem to be the case? is it?

1) your point about the charges of corruption would be right IF the Italian Judiciary system was like the Common Law ones. Our system is instead completely different, due to history and basic legal structures . The judges in Common Law systems are equidistant from politics.
You never saw the political system destroyed by Judges like our Mani Pulite operation, where almost all italian politicians were condamned for corruption or just prosecuted (except the well protected Communist or Post Communist, the only ones who kept their virginity). I want to point out that many of those politicians were found NOT GUILTY after many years, after having seen their life destroyed or depicted infamously. Many committed suicide and the final sentence who declared them NOT GUILTY was pretty useless.

You never saw Courts able to influence politics so much, that they could make a government fall: the point is that those charges were found completely unjustified after few months. Is it right that a bunch of Judges can change the democratic vote given by citizens?

More: many of these judges have progressed in their careers, awarded for the services by a sit in the Parliament. Guess in which Party? The Leftist- post communist party.

2) They are actually post communist. The main party changed their name in PDS, then DS. But the "old school" is still made of the heirs of the old PCI (Partito comunista Italiano), and many leaders of them were young militants in that party in Sixties and Seventies-

Other parties in the coalition: PDCI (Partito dei Comunisti Italiani) and RC (Rifondazione Comunista). They are 100% communist and post-communist and use that word and the communist symbol in their electoral symbol as well, if this other prove was needed as evidence.

6. Posted by coldwarspy (Travel Guru 1108 posts) 10y

hmmmm sounds similar to our McCarthy era in America - but the political roles were reversed.

7. Posted by Caesar (Full Member 74 posts) 10y

Mind that Antonio Di Pietro was one of the Public Prosecutors responsible of that big inquisition in early Nineties, and now he runs as leader of a small party inside the Leftwing coalition.

Plus let me tell you that Berlusconi is not rightwing. He's a liberal and liberist, a person that believes in the free market and in the theories of Ricardo and Smith. A person who embodies the moderate middle class in Italy. He embodies the middle class industry but has led a social politic in the last years giving importance to welfare state as well. These things are debatable in a normal political dialectic, and it's right it's this way.Many can say he didn't do enough, many can say otherwise.
But if someone told you that he's a rightwing fascist or something it was a blatant attempt of manipulative propaganda purposes and utterly false.