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41. Posted by Jase007 (Travel Guru 8870 posts) 10y

Brendan,
Some good points on the patriotism.
Not supporting soldiers for this reason have good intentions,But they would only work in a perfect world without greed. Which last time I had a look, doesn't exist and never will as man (women too) aspire to have what someone else has.
To support your troops does not nessesary mean you are supporting the goverment in sending them to where ever in the first place.

Remember they are people like you and I, and these people have offered to lay down their lives if requested for the country. I'm not saying I agree with how they have been deployed, because i don't in alot of cases.
But without it we all could be speaking German and Japanese.....

42. Posted by Belize Me (Full Member 137 posts) 10y

Quoting GregW

I secretly spit in every American's food.

I've heard that some American chefs are getting even with you...someting to do with gravy...I'm so glad I always have vinegar on my fries

43. Posted by Jase007 (Travel Guru 8870 posts) 10y

Quoting Belize Me

Quoting GregW

I secretly spit in every American's food.

I've heard that some American chefs are getting even with you...someting to do with gravy...I'm so glad I always have vinegar on my fries

I heard that ir was the mayo - home made by all accounts, totally natural

44. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 10y

Quoting Brendan

I agree Beerman, that BV's post really helped to answer my question.

I also agree completely with BV's comments. He said exactly what I was going to say in response.

Granted, I still disagree completely. I can understand supporting police, firefighters, paramedics, magicians... but soldiers?

The aformentioned being rescuers, helpers, preservers of life: while a soldier is a weapon. A tool of destruction. (I'm not saying soldiers don't have their place... but to support them is something entirely different. To support a soldier is to condone their actions. Soldiers kill or be killed. If you know of other definitions please let me know.

You "speak" as though soldiers were automatons. They are human beings that, due to the nature of the beast, are given a task to perform and they perform it. They are not just a tool of destruction, but also a tool of reconstruction and restructure. Whether they believe the cause is just or not, they have sworn to uphold their duty - one which was decided without them - and they do just that. To support a soldier does not mean one supports the tasks that soldier is ordered to perform. It means one or more individuals have earned my respect and support because they have held to their promise.

The US military saw declines in enlistments after Viet Nam. As a tool to "beef up" their numbers, the GI Bill was brought to the high schools - earn money while getting your college education. Year after year, students signed up, did their tour of duty, got their education and went home. And, after awhile, the thought of actually having to be deployed to a war zone seemed a miniscule possibility. Life was good. Oops - 9/11 happens. Now the US has 3000+ dead in a single day. People are angry, devistated, and victims. As some are saying, "Damn, I didn't sign up for this!", other's are signing up en force. Sorry, but in a country that thought an attack on their soil was almost impossible - signing up to bring the bad guys to justice brought a sense of doing something to many. It's not the soldier's fault the deployment destination detoured radically. They may be a tool, they surely are not robotic killing machines.

I honestly wonder what your reaction would be if Canada had been the target and the attacks as successful. I'm not speaking about Canadians in general, but Brendan O'Brien. (And, please do not take that as a personal afront - because I know you in certain respects, I really do try to understand you.) I just hope we never, ever find out the answer.

I suppose the root of my arguement stems from the fact that I fear Patriotism™ more than the soldiers it supports.

Pure and simple - patriotism is the love of, devotion to and a willingness to sacrifice for one's country. What some people have done with that definition is another story...

45. Posted by Belize Me (Full Member 137 posts) 10y

Quoting Brendan

...Soldiers kill or be killed.

Untrue. I have family members who were soldiers and I have heard many stories from them about enemy combatants showing eachother mercy after being confronted by 'the other side'.

TERRORISTS kill, and they do not care if they lose their lives because they have no respect for life. Thank a soldier who is willing to put his/her life on the line so that you are not killed by a terrorist!

If your father or brother or sister was a soldier, would you still have the same contempt?

46. Posted by Bau (Budding Member 7 posts) 10y

there is a rivalry

we often don't agree with eachother in politics (i'm one)

but when it comes to the common people, there's lots of love

47. Posted by Mike_T (Budding Member 7 posts) 10y

hell yeah. As a rule, person-to-person, Americans and Canadians get along (as long as it's not a gun-loving Confederate from Alabama conversing with a legally-married queer Canadian atheist...damn that could get ugly)

[ Edit: Edited at May 25, 2006 6:37 PM by Mike_T ]

48. Posted by Bau (Budding Member 7 posts) 10y

yah...we'll have to er, make sure that doesn't happen

49. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 10y

I can certainly appreciate a person willing to die for what they believe... but to kill is something different. I do understand that soldiers are humans too, and not T800's, but that doesn't change the role and purpose of a soldier. To kill.

I will work my way back up the responses:

Belize Me - It would seem your thoughts on Terrorists™ seems to counter the point you are trying to make to me. Believe it or not Terrorists™ are humans with such a strong belief in their cause they are willing to kill and die for it. Hmm.. interesting, sounds like a soldier. Who is to say a Terrorists™ has no respect for life? In my eyes someone who puts insecticide on their lawn has no respect for life.

I don't hold anyone in contempt, not the terrorist, not the soldier, not the baker, not the mail-man... I am fairly certain that even if by chance someone close to me was killed by Terrorists™ I would hold my view that instead of unleashing vengeance and fury we find out "why" they did what they did.

Isadora- I do see what you are saying, I really do. I still can not agree with it though. Through out the ages "leaders" have rallied troops to fight for the greater good. To kill the enemy, to vanquish evil from the land. Doesn't all sound so cliche to you now? You can see it now... you can turn to any news channel and actaully see the propaganda to try and convince people to do it all over again.

As for my reaction if Canada was attacked in the same manner, I truely believe it would be the same. People don't just kill without a reason and Terrorists™ are no exception. If Canada were to be attacked (which is more likely now that it is taking the lead role in Afganistan) it would be attacked for a reason. Would it warrent an illogical frenzy of warfare across the globe? No.

As for Patriotism, I see what people like in the idea. That your country is your home and you should love it and protect it. However, I think it nothing more than another system of control. The only way to control a massive amount of people is to rally them around a common theme. The easiest ones to sell are: Country, Religion, Race, Gender, etc.

Jase007 - For me I see no difference if we were speaking Russian, Mongolian, Japanese, or German. Instead of any of those countries successfully controlling the world through empire, slavery, torture, and conquest it was the English. The only reason we are speaking English is because the English did what you fear what the Germans were trying. If we all spoke German today we would still be depating the finer points on life. Perhaps it wouldn't be on "The Internet"...

---------

I can see many people are sold on the idea of Terrorists™ as the ultimate evil. That scares me more than any Terrorist™.

Thanks for the debate,
I really enjoy it.

50. Posted by yolandac8 (Respected Member 159 posts) 10y

Quoting vickim

I found the first postings by Americans to be quite interesting when they state that the rivalry between Canadians and Americans to be in good fun. Canadians see no humour in Americans teasing us or implying they may be better. When a Canadian teases an American it may be expressed in a sarcastic and fun-loving tone but in most cases they mean what they say.

I cannot agree more with TylerJames posting that Canadians get offended when people mistake them for Americans. When Canadians travel abroad they make every effort not be mistaken for an American. They usually find absolutely no brothership or releif at all in meeting up with an American. Some of us are embarassed to admit we are neighbours and we may have some similarities. Actually, many would find more delight in meeting up with an Australian.

To the ignorant language comments; these comments are examples why we are so protective of our identity. First, there isn't a problem deciding whether to speak French or English. I speak English everyday without giving it much thought at all. I don't understand why would anyone from another country would care if we have more than one offical language? Second, the comment that my children may be required to speak an Arabic or Asian language one day is a stupid comment but if it came to that, why would I consider that upsetting? As I ride the Subway in Toronto everyday I am sometimes the only white person out of 50-100 people and I hear all sorts of languages that I don't understand. Also, I am not going to have more children just to keep the white population up and keep the immigrants out. That is such a stupid and ignorant argument. As a true Canadian I have no reason to feel threatened or offended by people.

I can honestly say, I would much rather have my children learn Arabic or Asian than to be mistaken for a American.

I couldn't agree more with you. I am not American nor Canadian, but I think that I am able to give my opinion from the outside. I think that everyone should be proud of their nationality, and as I say to myself in my mother tongue sometimes "Don't wish for other what you would not wish for yourself".

I come from Spain, and I was once asked if Spain was a very big region of Mexico, by an American. Mexico and Spain are different countries even in different continents! But not for that I think all Americans are stupid.

As Brendan says, I don't like what the US does in most of their goverments and social issues, and that comes from the people of the country. But I would never rejet an American that I don't know just because of the country she/he comes from.

We are having a lot of inmigration problems in Spain at the moment. Lots of people from Africa risk their lives crossing the seas, trying to reach spanish shores, just to find themselves repatriated into their countries. Only few arrive, and fewer get a decent job and a new life here. I have gone to others countries to "gain the bread", to try and survive, so I know how hard this could be (and my inmigration conditions where not even comparable!!!! I was the luckiest person compared to them). I have few doors closed, just because I wasn't native, even if I was professionally ready for it... I didn't think it was a fair thing, so I don't know why we should be doing the same to others. I am speaking about africans coming to Europe, Mexicans getting in the USA, or whatever the inmigrant fluaction is... We are all human beings, some are mean, some other are really good people, all different from each other in every country...

Don't believe in prejudgements....