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121. Posted by Herr Bert (Moderator 1384 posts) 9y

Quoting Isadora

But, it should also be considered a book of history as certain events (such as the flood) can be proven. You have to look at the size of the "civilized" world to realize the flood may not have covered the whole of the earth. That does not mean it did not happen. I do have a problem with the pillar of salt and 700 year old people - but that's just me...

Even the flood that is proven (the filling up, of what now is the Black Sea), is not of the same proportions than the flood that is written down in the bible. So I would place my doubts on that story. If you want to regard them as being 100% true. There is a core to the story that is true, but a lot of it isn't, and that would also have repercusions for the story of Noah.

But also on other stories that are written down. The splitting of the Red sea, can be regarded as a translation error. (in the original text it was not the Red sea that Moses crossed, but it was the Sea of Reed. (a swamplike piece of land, in the area where you can find the Suez-canal nowadays). Most likely Moses and his people traveled very light, and could find a way through this area, but the Egyptians couldn't. You see the same kind of things happening across Europe in the time of the Romans.

And ofcourse there is the story of Jesus of Nazareth, that is a familiar story to other (and some even older) stories, told about other Jesus-like persons. In fact we celibrate the birthday of Jesus on the 25th of December, but in fact that is regarded the birthday of Mitrass, one of the other persons about whom were told similar stories around that time. In the Bible he is being rideculled, which can also be explained as an attempt to get rid of a rival-Messiah. The story of Jesus, seems to be a mixture of a lot of lose stories.

At least what I want to say is, that the Bible can not be seen as a proof of the existance of a God, nor can it be labeled an accurate historical document.

On one other remark I want to comment: homosexuality was considered by some people as not natural. I believe that love is the most important in a relationship. I guess that everybody will say that having feelings for somebody, you love, is normal, than tell me why it can ever be wrong to love somebody, even if he/she is of the same sex. It is about the love a couple feel for eachother, and not in which form or shape it comes. Love is the key ingredient, not the way you express this love for someone.

For the record, I am an Atheist, and I am bisexual.

122. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 9y

Quoting Herr Bert

Quoting Isadora

But, it should also be considered a book of history as certain events (such as the flood) can be proven. You have to look at the size of the "civilized" world to realize the flood may not have covered the whole of the earth. That does not mean it did not happen. I do have a problem with the pillar of salt and 700 year old people - but that's just me...

Even the flood that is proven (the filling up, of what now is the Black Sea), is not of the same proportions than the flood that is written down in the bible. So I would place my doubts on that story. If you want to regard them as being 100% true. There is a core to the story that is true, but a lot of it isn't, and that would also have repercusions for the story of Noah.

But also on other stories that are written down. The splitting of the Red sea, can be regarded as a translation error. (in the original text it was not the Red sea that Moses crossed, but it was the Sea of Reed. (a swamplike piece of land, in the area where you can find the Suez-canal nowadays). Most likely Moses and his people traveled very light, and could find a way through this area, but the Egyptians couldn't. You see the same kind of things happening across Europe in the time of the Romans.

And ofcourse there is the story of Jesus of Nazareth, that is a familiar story to other (and some even older) stories, told about other Jesus-like persons. In fact we celibrate the birthday of Jesus on the 25th of December, but in fact that is regarded the birthday of Mitrass, one of the other persons about whom were told similar stories around that time. In the Bible he is being rideculled, which can also be explained as an attempt to get rid of a rival-Messiah. The story of Jesus, seems to be a mixture of a lot of lose stories.

At least what I want to say is, that the Bible can not be seen as a proof of the existance of a God, nor can it be labeled an accurate historical document.

On one other remark I want to comment: homosexuality was considered by some people as not natural. I believe that love is the most important in a relationship. I guess that everybody will say that having feelings for somebody, you love, is normal, than tell me why it can ever be wrong to love somebody, even if he/she is of the same sex. It is about the love a couple feel for eachother, and not in which form or shape it comes. Love is the key ingredient, not the way you express this love for someone.

For the record, I am an Atheist, and I am bisexual.

Just for the record, I'm James, and I'm an alcoholic.

Woops - wrong forum

I disagree with you about what you said about homosexuality and love. We can love many people, but we do not have sex with them. You love your parents, brothers and sisters, friends, etc but they are not sexual partners (I hope ).

I don't want to derail this thread, but I do think that homosexuality is wrong on many levels.

As for "proof" of God, what sort of proof would satisfy you?

123. Posted by wouterrr (Travel Guru 3379 posts) 9y

Rene, that is a very good piece of text, you talk like a scientist. Probably that made you an atheist?

And ofcourse the Quran or the bible are no proof for the excistence of God. It is the basis of a religion that for a strange reason keeps going for centuries and centuries. Believers should be idiots to believe in something that doesn't excist. But yet they do. Apparently religion has that power. Can't imagine that 75% or so, at this world are idiots;).

124. Posted by wouterrr (Travel Guru 3379 posts) 9y

Quoting james

Quoting Herr Bert

For the record, I am an Atheist, and I am bisexual.

Just for the record, I'm James, and I'm an alcoholic.

Sad joke, James:(.

[ Edit: Fixed quote ]

125. Posted by dr.pepper (Travel Guru 316 posts) 9y

Quoting Herr Bert

Where things really go wrong is, when people make an interpretation of the holy book (that is already filled with mistakes). By making interpretations you will get some groups, that have extreme ideas, and others that have not.

So if we're not meant to take the book literally and not meant to make an interpretation, what are we supposed to do with it?

In my opinion every group, that is claiming to be the one and only true religion, and try to impose this truth on other people is a threat to people and therefore also for politicians.

I agree. Trying to impose your own beliefs on others is threatening.

I also believe that people are entitled to believe that their beliefs are correct. Is it logical to believe that every belief system is equally correct, when a few tell me that I will die and go to heaven, another tells me I'll be reincarnated, and another tells me I'll just die and that's it? Doesn't seem logical to me that we could all be right...

But just to emphasise... I don't believe anyone, whether Jew, Christian, Muslim, Atheist or Hindu, has the right to impose their beliefs on anyone else.

Eric

126. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 9y

Quoting Wﺭﺍﺪﻤﺎﮐﺭ

Quoting james

Quoting Herr Bert

For the record, I am an Atheist, and I am bisexual.

Just for the record, I'm James, and I'm an alcoholic.

Sad joke, James:(.

Yeah.....hicup, you're........hicup, correct

[ Edit: Fixed quote ]

127. Posted by wouterrr (Travel Guru 3379 posts) 9y

Quoting dr.pepper

So if we're not meant to take the book literally and not meant to make an interpretation, what are we supposed to do with it?

You need an interpretation for yourself, learned by the way you are brought up. With litery, I mean certain passages about anti-homosexual and other things that could be negative in these times. In the biblical times these passages were probably more in context. Its bad when fundamentalists use these passages to insult for instance homo-sexuals and women.

Quoting dr.Pepper

I also believe that people are entitled to believe that their beliefs are correct. Is it logical to believe that every belief system is equally correct, when a few tell me that I will die and go to heaven, another tells me I'll be reincarnated, and another tells me I'll just die and that's it? Doesn't seem logical to me that we could all be right...

I am sure that we all believe in the same god. From the christians to the muslims to the hindus. It has all the same source, namely god. The differences are there because of culture, location and time. All religions talk about heaven, remarkable? So actually you will shake hands with a Hindu and an Islamist in heaven, and the differences are gone;).

Quoting dr.Pepper

But just to emphasise... I don't believe anyone, whether Jew, Christian, Muslim, Atheist or Hindu, has the right to impose their beliefs on anyone else.

This is true. The difference should not be emphazised because deep we know that we believe in the same god

[ Edit: Edited on Feb 7, 2007, at 5:03 PM by Wﺭﺍﺪﻤﺎﮐﺭ ]

128. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 9y

When people say that no-one has the right to impose their religion on other people, what do they actually mean?

No one has ever imposed their religion on me, nor me on anyone else. Sure people of all religions have approached me in the street wanting to educate me on their religion, but they are not imposing it on me.

No one likes people imposing anything on them, so why the fuss about religion?

129. Posted by dr.pepper (Travel Guru 316 posts) 9y

Quoting Wﺭﺍﺪﻤﺎﮐﺭ

Quoting dr.pepper

[quote=dr.Pepper]
I also believe that people are entitled to believe that their beliefs are correct. Is it logical to believe that every belief system is equally correct, when a few tell me that I will die and go to heaven, another tells me I'll be reincarnated, and another tells me I'll just die and that's it? Doesn't seem logical to me that we could all be right...

I am sure that we all believe in the same god. From the christians to the muslims to the hindus. It has all the same source, namely god. The differences are there because of culture, location and time. All religions talk about heaven, remarkable? So actually you will shake hands with a Hindu and an Islamist in heaven, and the differences are gone;).

If I were to believe that, I would have to reject one central teaching of Christ. "I am the way, the truth and the life... No one comes to the father but by me." In other words, the way to get to heaven is through faith in Christ - there's no other way. It's a pretty exclusive claim, which contrasts with your idea that people of all faiths (including those which are not in Christ) will end up in heaven. So to believe what you believe implies a rejection of that teaching of Christ. To me, to reject the teachings of Christ is to reject Christianity (seeing as he's the founder of the faith).

Eric

130. Posted by wouterrr (Travel Guru 3379 posts) 9y

Quoting james

When people say that no-one has the right to impose their religion on other people, what do they actually mean?

No one has ever imposed their religion on me, nor me on anyone else. Sure people of all religions have approached me in the street wanting to educate me on their religion, but they are not imposing it on me.

No one likes people imposing anything on them, so why the fuss about religion?

The purpose of every religion is expanding, like it always has done. To convert as many people as possible. You should not get converted into any other religion in whatever way that should come to you. Many people don't think about it but you could come in such a situation, that is possible. In my view that doesn't matter because all religions believe in the same god. So you just move, as to speak, to another house. But that is my opinion and this opinion is not so much shared these days;)

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