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31. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 9y

Quoting Wﺭﺍﺪﻤﺎﮐﺭ

Quoting beerman

No, I'm not forgetting the source. But the sources you quoted...Good Morning America?...my, that's not terribly different than getting your information from Teletubbies.

Teletubbies, really? This is maybe a tabloid like article but is everything in it just crap, is it all a lie? I agree with you that this articale has some sensation factor in it. But to say this is tinky winky, no. Those coloured friends don't say a word and are not really sophisticated and rather stupid, you know! A little bit like Arnold Schwarzeneggers adventure in Calefornia. Europeans are still joking over it.

Well, the Good Morning, America article is definitely a one-sided view, but it was an interview after all. Having not seen Pelosi's Friends of God documentary, I can't comment on slant she chose to take with it. As with anything, a documentary still reflects what the documentarian wants to say with the film. Michael Moore is a good example of covering important issues but taking a sensationalist approach to improve viewship.

Europeans may be laughing at Arnie but California is not. He is doing a good job as Governor and has learned what it takes to work within the system. It took him awhile, but he is far from being a joke on the political front.

Ultimately, it will be interesting to see how quickly the Evangelical front fades into the background following the next election in 2008. As long as they have a President ready and willing to rally for them, they will remain in the forefront and fodder for the media. A change in US politics is a given (because the pendelum always swings drastically one direction then the other) and the Whitehouse Support Group will no longer be in power.

32. Posted by Sam I Am (Admin 5588 posts) 9y

Quoting Wﺭﺍﺪﻤﺎﮐﺭ

Quoting Sam I Am

Europeans are no more level headed than Americans, and I'm sure you know of all the hatred in the Netherlands against immigrants that still very much exists. Also, especially in Holland, if you are a Christian you get the same looks that an atheist might get in some parts of the States.

Weird looks if you are a Christian? Yes true. And that is exactly my point. This are the moderate ones and don't speak openly about their faith. If I say I am Christian in Holland people don't know really how to react. In the more developed and educated society in US (the big cities, LA, NY, Miami, Seattle) this is the same. They don't need faith because they have all they want. But not in the rural places, they need god as saviour and have potential of getting extremistic thoughts.

No offense, but that is a very short sighted and generalistic view and totally unfounded at that. Your point in your original post was that 'in the US its better not to say you are an atheist. In Europe that is accepted'.

I was just pointing out that your argument also works the other way around: 'in Europe its better not to say you are a Christian. In the US that is accepted'.

Have you looked at it that way (ie. the fact that you are more or less persecuted for believing anything in the Netherlands?)? And if so, why do you think your view is then the right one and not the one from the US??? Imo, it always pays to look at things from both sides and see your own society's faults are often exactly the same as those you are criticizing.

Quoting Wﺭﺍﺪﻤﺎﮐﺭ

How long ago have you visited the Netherlands for the last time? Remember the SGP ("de verschrikkelijke" Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij....brrrrr cold as ice and scary). Do you understand my point of view a little, Sam? Maybe I am influenced by the media and tabloid like articles but that is the information I get. The SGP wants traditional roles for women (the kitchen).

I was just saying I had never heard of them having less rights. More traditional roles doesn't mean the same thing! I know quite a few guys that have totally no religious upbringing that might even be swayed to making comments like this, let alone the number of women that might prefer this. I'm not saying I do, but I'm just trying to point out that a group supporting a more traditional role definitely does not mean the women have less rights! I believe everyone should have the right to choose what works best for them. Personally I'd love to have a more traditional 'homey' role, but that doesn't mean I'm giving up my rights :)

Quoting Wﺭﺍﺪﻤﺎﮐﺭ

Hatred against muslims and illegals is connected with the terrible backwarded Hardenberg in the province of Overijssel in the Netherlands.

As far as I am aware, Van Gogh was killed in the middle of Amsterdam, the most 'liberal thinking of cities'.... have you ever tried talking to a cab driver in Amsterdam that isn't from overseas about this. That will really send a chill down your spine

Just to be clear, I don't necessarily disagree with you on all points, but you're just making so many generalizations without seeing how seriously messed up the Netherlands is (and I'm highlighting this, but it could be said for pretty much any country in the world!)....

33. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 9y

Quoting Wﺭﺍﺪﻤﺎﮐﺭ

In the more developed and educated society in US (the big cities, LA, NY, Miami, Seattle) this is the same. They don't need faith because they have all they want. But not in the rural places, they need god as saviour and have potential of getting extremistic thoughts.

If that is ultimately true, then how do you explain the increase in "megachurches" in the more densely populated areas? These "places of worship" are large and cater to their member's every need. They include health clubs, eating establishments, daycare, etc. What a captive audience for disseminating radical beliefs and fundamentalism. Rural areas do not get this type of coverage and residents continue to visit their local parish, not just to praise God, but also as a social activity.

34. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 9y

Quoting Sam I Am

FYI, I strongly dislike the use of the word extremist here, but I'll stick with it since it's what makes this thread so controversial.

Uh, excuse me.....isn't that a bit extreme??

Quoting Sam I Am

I'd also like to point out that I have never heard of women having 'less rights'. As far as I am aware, this is not a part of any Christian belief, even the more fundamental and strict groups.

Oddly, there are sects here in the US that do want women to have fewer rights. One example is the Southern Baptists: Women are supposed to be subservient to their husbands, as well as walking several paces behind them in public. Ex-President Jimmy Carter and wife Roslyn left the church after this decree.

Another sect is within the Mormon Church, or as they are also known, The Church of Latter-Day Saints of Jesus Christ (snappy title).....There are sects within that practice a form of polygamy that basically marries 12-year old girls to older men. There seems to be a certain perversion of rights there.....

BTW, from personal experience......never try to make your wife walk three paces behind you, to the right. The doctor says I should regain full use of that arm in a few years.....

35. Posted by magykal1 (Travel Guru 2026 posts) 9y

I think we use the word 'extremism' too interchangeably with 'intolerance'. If someone is passionate about their faith, fair enough, but it becomes a problem when any group applies political pressure to curtail everybody's rights based on their belief. In this respect it is invariably religious groups that are guilty - you simply don't find atheist/humanist groups pushing for less rights, in democracies.

The USA, in comparison to most European countries, has proportionately more political pressure from Christian groups, and this is reflected in debates about abortion, teaching evolution, availability of contraception etc - genuine attempts to limit peoples life choices and education that would simply be non-starters in the UK or Holland at the moment.

However, the USA is far from unique and pressure is applied to varying extents by a variety of religious groups in a variety of countries. We would do well to be wary of this, wherever it may happen - I believe that protecting our rights is an important business. Personally I hope that the US public turn out and vote against any religious bigots at the next election and prove critics wrong.

36. Posted by Sam I Am (Admin 5588 posts) 9y

Quoting magykal1

The USA, in comparison to most European countries, has proportionately more political pressure from Christian groups, and this is reflected in debates about abortion, teaching evolution, availability of contraception etc - genuine attempts to limit peoples life choices and education that would simply be non-starters in the UK or Holland at the moment.

I think fair mention should also be given to the fact that this is primarily based on the way the US voting/electoral system works. If that was different, political pressures like this would be far less strong in the States as they would simply be less effective and 'evened' out on a whole population. The per state win or lose all method leads to politicians having to go one way or the other, with no in between.... and there are some very powerful states that you'll always consider to be democrat or republican even though 20 to 30% of that state might not be. I didn't bring this up earlier as it's really a political thing rather than a religious thing, but it's probably the single most contributing factor as to why religious groups can exert so much power in certain states causing issues to become a national 'issue', which will get them heard in the rest of the world, even though 45 states might not agree.... but you can bet the media picks up on it

37. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 9y

Quoting Isadora

Michael Moore is a good example of covering important issues but taking a sensationalist approach to improve viewship.

To threadjack for a second, it's interesting you bring that up. I've been waching "The Awful Truth" over the last week and love the guy's courage to go out and get to the bottom of the issues. Yet every once in a while he oversteps it. His gay RV ride around the southern states was funny and showed the underbelly of some pretty awful groups, but I kept thinking that men in drag making out on the dashboard aren't really the norm in the gay community.

38. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 9y

Quoting tway

Quoting Isadora

Michael Moore is a good example of covering important issues but taking a sensationalist approach to improve viewship.

To threadjack for a second, it's interesting you bring that up. I've been waching "The Awful Truth" over the last week and love the guy's courage to go out and get to the bottom of the issues. Yet every once in a while he oversteps it. His gay RV ride around the southern states was funny and showed the underbelly of some pretty awful groups, but I kept thinking that men in drag making out on the dashboard aren't really the norm in the gay community.

Sorry to continue jacking...

We have not seen The Awful Truth because it's broatcast is on Bravo - we don't have cable/satellite TV. I have just read a review by Ronnie D. Lackford, Jr. (whoever he may be...) stating it was the equivalent of 60 Minutes produced by Saturday Night Live. Interesting visial, actually. But, once again (regardless of Lackford, Jr.'s review), it shows what it takes (semi or full sensationalism of serious topics) to get people's attentions. People want to be entertained and they want something that is relevent to the way they live their own lives. Michael Moore's program does that because it probably runs somewhere between Jackass and The Nanny and does it in an "in your face" way. (I like Michael Moore, but I also digress...)

Now, trying to bring it back... The same holds true for religion and sensationalizing God. Sam, in his most recent post, has truly hit the nail on the head. Because our political system is designed the way it is, it does allow religious groups to have an enormous amount of pull. Looking at our history, the colonization occurred because of religious differences and a puritanical viewpoint. Whenever the state of the nation appears to be "rotating out of control", someone comes along to point out that God won't be happy and that we need to put our ducks in a row. The masses follow because it's easier to follow than think for one's self - religious or not. When we're not satisfied with "God's mouthpieces", the tide turns again. Seriously, the majority of US citizens are so wrapped up in their own dramas that most anything that gives them direction without having to do it themselves will be considered a good thing - including religion.

(Personally, I vote for Michael Moore becoming an internet ordained minister, donning a collar and starting his own religion. Now that would be entertainment!)

39. Posted by wouterrr (Travel Guru 3379 posts) 9y

Yeah, yeah go ahead, hijack this thread....

Women

40. Posted by wouterrr (Travel Guru 3379 posts) 9y

For all clearity. It isn't my intention to spread anti-American thoughts. I have no "anti" feelings against any culture or country. Maybe it indicated a bit in that direction but that is absolutely not the case. I think this is a interesting discussion. I heard a few good arguments that tackled my thoughts. But I am still not sure about the fundamental or conservative preachers/vicars, to which I have the feeling (based on the info I get via the media) that they seem similar to extreme mullahs/imams in Islam. That just concerns me.

I also want to be clear about the last post. It was not seriously meant.

[ Edit: Edited on Feb 6, 2007, at 1:20 PM by Wﺭﺍﺪﻤﺎﮐﺭ ]

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