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Are borders stupid?

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31. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting Utrecht

But honestly I think it would be a bigger problem than it is already. If sigarettes are banned from the regular (legal) selling points, less people would smoke.


Remember when alcohol was banned in the US? If people wanted to drink, they still drank.

32. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

There is more to education, than university degrees.

Ahhh....my mistake then. What type of education did you have in mind that helps prevent dictatorships ?

33. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

We white folk here in the first world, are pros at cheating and lying. We have striped others bare, and made laws to make sure we hold on to what we have gained. Now we want to hold onto our immigration laws, and our restricitions, so we wont have to share, with those we exploited.

Why are so many countires, in the third world so dirt poor, even though they can produce cash crops? Hard wood, coffee, tea, etc. We make sure that it is we who profit, and not them. Why dont we get rid or our restrictions, and allow them an equal opportunity.

This is a whole new discussion, Mel. We're talking about borders, and why they're necessary. I never said anything about exploitation or 3rd world countries or the developed world's almost total neglect of the developing world. But I think an open-border policy would mean more tyrants would be able to influence more people and corrupt more governments.

And - I'm going out on a limb here - if the whole world was one big country, would Canada, say, take on the population of Somalia? Would England host Burkina Faso? Would Australia take out the spare cots for Darfur? It would be total chaos - and our systems would collapse.

The answer to all that lies in giving adequate, consistent foreign aid - but that, as I said, is another discussion altogether.

[ Edit: Edited on Feb 12, 2007, at 2:08 PM by tway ]

34. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

Your ancesters were not the first people to live in the US. Unless u have decended from the Native American Indians. White Americans would be part of we white folk. As far as I see, the Native Indians were not given a good price, for their land, and are still discriminated against, in the US today.

No, my ancestors came here to escape European and Asian oppression less than 100 years ago.

Just because someone is white, it doesn't mean they have ever had anything to do with the oppression of another. I thoroughly resent the insinuation. It reaches down to a deep-seated level of naivete on your part. That would assume that all white people are alike, ergo all black people are alike, ergo brown people are alike.

That's just plain rude Mel, and if you are going to continue on this tack, you should at least apologize to the people you are backhandedly insulting.

35. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

We white folk here in the first world, are pros at cheating and lying. We have striped others bare, and made laws to make sure we hold on to what we have gained. Now we want to hold onto our immigration laws, and our restricitions, so we wont have to share, with those we exploited.

And one more point on that. Yes, white people cheat and lie. But so to do people of every other race, colour, language, gender, and so on.

The point you're trying to make reminds me of a program I saw once on people with mental disabilities. The person being interviewed was fed up of people equating the mentally disabled to pure, innocent, all-moral entities. They are, he insisted, capable of lying, pouting, cheating, acting up, and being downright mean. In short, they're human. Just like the rest of us.

36. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 9y

Quoting tway

And one more point on that. Yes, white people cheat and lie. But so to do people of every other race, colour, language, gender, and so on.

Except for us Asians. We're as pure as the driven snow....

37. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

UMM!!!
This conversation is going all wrong. :(
I was not intending to offend people, or get into a discussion about races or about whose fault things are.
I was more trying to imagine how the world would be, if things had happend a different way, and if it is possible to make it change course and go that way now, so there would be peace and fairness.
Anyway. Good Night!!!

38. Posted by Herr Bert (Moderator 1384 posts) 9y

Quoting tway

Quoting Mel.

We white folk here in the first world, are pros at cheating and lying. We have striped others bare, and made laws to make sure we hold on to what we have gained. Now we want to hold onto our immigration laws, and our restricitions, so we wont have to share, with those we exploited.

Why are so many countires, in the third world so dirt poor, even though they can produce cash crops? Hard wood, coffee, tea, etc. We make sure that it is we who profit, and not them. Why dont we get rid or our restrictions, and allow them an equal opportunity.

This is a whole new discussion, Mel. We're talking about borders, and why they're necessary. I never said anything about exploitation or 3rd world countries or the developed world's almost total neglect of the developing world. But I think an open-border policy would mean more tyrants would be able to influence more people and corrupt more governments.

And - I'm going out on a limb here - if the whole world was one big country, would Canada, say, take on the population of Somalia? Would England host Burkina Faso? Would Australia take out the spare cots for Darfur? It would be total chaos - and our systems would collapse.

The answer to all that lies in giving adequate, consistent foreign aid - but that, as I said, is another discussion altogether.

I think the answer lies much more in a good set of trading rules. If I take a look at the EU (and America), then it is impossible for an African farmer to sell his goods on a European Market, without having to pay huge taxes. While European farmer gets garanteed prices and huge grants. This has to stop. It is crazy that we in Holland, are producing Tomates in a greenhouse, while in other countries these tomates can grow outdoors. It is the EU protecting their own market, and creating problems. By over-producing most of the agricultural products and selling those for very low prices in third world countries, even cheaper than the local farmers can produce them for, the EU is destroying fragile economies. Just for everybodies information, the costs agricultural grants to farmers within the EU, are almost half of the budget spendings in the EU.

Foreign Aid is good but not nearly enough, We need to get rid of these grants, and to lift the taxes on imported good, from outside of the EU.

That said: I don't think borders will disappear, but there is a much bigger threat that local customs, and cultures will disappear. When borders would disappear, a lot of new borders will appear (some more logical, than the borders of today). Some countries within the EU, and giving more, and more attention to their own identity. In my opinion if you would get rid of all border, new ones will emerge, and some groups will declare indepence ... and so your back were you started.

39. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 9y

Yeah, I'm all for getting rid of borders. That way my lifetime dream of living in Uganda can be realised.

40. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

But, it is starting to work in the European Union, already. We have not had a war here, for 60 years. And human rights are increasing in Turkey, becasue they want to join the EU, where certain violations of human rights are just not tolerated. We did not use any force, over Turkey, to bring about this improvement.

Is the former Yugoslavia part of Europe or not? If so, then Europe has had a war in the past 10 years.

However, I'm sure if those people were part of the EU then the tensions and hatred that go back hundreds of years would simply have turned into an exercise of neighbourly cake baking.