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Are borders stupid?

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61. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting tway

Topic 1: Elimination of borders

Topic 2: Better, more focused foreign aid

Well, i agree with what Herr Bert said. We should have fairer trading laws, in order to allow people in the third world, to make money.
I think, the elimination of borders was just a thought. I though, if we get rid of the restrictions of our countries, on immigration and trading, it might be fairer. What is the point of giving charity, and at the same time keeping them dependant on it?

62. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

Quoting tway

Yeah - the EU, and most of the rest of the world, did great by Rwanda by sending too few troops and turning their backs on genocide. Eliminating borders does not magically fix foreign-aid problems.

That is exactly the lack of caring I am talking about, when I say we use the world as a playground, but dont look after it.

I answered that in response to this:

Quoting Mel.

Human rights, in the EU countries are well developed, arent they? And the European Union countries have not had a war for over 60 years. Not saying they are perfect, but how did we get as far, as we did?

You're saying the borderless EU is the ideal. I'm saying you're not giving all the facts.

63. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting tway

You're saying the borderless EU is the ideal. I'm saying you're not giving all the facts.

Well, i dont have all the facts. I am trying to find them out, but politics seems to be endlessly complicated.
I have only recently started to take an interest in politics. Before, I used to think things are not that bad. Then I started to find out more and more, about it. I am truely astonished about what bad things are going on, in the world. I wonder why we cant do better.

But of course the the EU is not ideal. I am just thinking about all the progress we have made, not saying things are prefect.

[ Edit: Edited on Feb 13, 2007, at 6:45 AM by Mel. ]

64. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

As for taking action. It depends on what action people take. I am not so sure subjecting themselves to being murdered and beaten is such a good idea. But maybe they had no way of knowing that such violence would happen

Police Officers, Soldiers, Red Cross/Crecent workers, Amesty International, Peace Corps workers, etc. subject themselves to being murdered and beaten in the name of the greater good all the time.

As far as I'm concerned, you are responsible for your own actions. Even walking across the street you learn to look both ways.

65. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting Q'

As far as I'm concerned, you are responsible for your own actions. Even walking across the street you learn to look both ways.

yeah, of course we have to take calculated risks.

66. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

Quoting Q'

As far as I'm concerned, you are responsible for your own actions. Even walking across the street you learn to look both ways.

yeah, of course we have to take calculated risks.

That's why we need borders isn't it. I have to cross the street to go shopping, work, visit my friends, etc. But while I'm comfortable with the environment on this side of the sidewalk, I can't see far enough to the otherside. So I put up signs, lights, cross walks, etc. so I have the opporotunity to look before I go across. Cars stop for me, other people stop for me. It's still my neighbourhood where I live. But I ensure my safety when I cross. Everyone has the right to drive cars, but this way everyone is safe.

Same thing with a border. Everyone stops. Everyone gets a chance to look. It's the same planet. But I can stop disease, creatures incompatible with my homeland, criminals, wars, etc. from getting to my neighbourhood.

It's minimizing the calculated risk isn't it.

[ Edit: Edited on Feb 13, 2007, at 8:22 AM by Q' ]

67. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 9y

Quoting Q'

Same thing with a border. Everyone stops. Everyone gets a chance to look. It's the same planet. But I can stop disease, creatures incompatible with my homeland, criminals, wars, etc. from getting to my neighbourhood.

I agree - borders are there to protect. But having borders doesn't mean we can't extend beyond them to help out other people. It just means we're protecting ourselves first. Much like you lock the door at night even though you trust your neighbours.

Post 68 was removed by a moderator
69. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting Herr Bert

I think the answer lies much more in a good set of trading rules. If I take a look at the EU (and America), then it is impossible for an African farmer to sell his goods on a European Market, without having to pay huge taxes. While European farmer gets garanteed prices and huge grants. This has to stop. It is crazy that we in Holland, are producing Tomates in a greenhouse, while in other countries these tomates can grow outdoors. It is the EU protecting their own market, and creating problems. By over-producing most of the agricultural products and selling those for very low prices in third world countries, even cheaper than the local farmers can produce them for, the EU is destroying fragile economies. Just for everybodies information, the costs agricultural grants to farmers within the EU, are almost half of the budget spendings in the EU.

Foreign Aid is good but not nearly enough, We need to get rid of these grants, and to lift the taxes on imported good, from outside of the EU.

Tway and Q

What about what Herr Bert said.
Look how much money and effort we are putting into protecting ourselves.
And is all this effort actually giving us protection, and from what?
And look at the damage we are doing to people, in the the third world.
And how many more incidents are there, like the tomato example Herr Bert gives?

70. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

Tway and Q

What about what Herr Bert said.

Look how much money and effort we are putting into protecting ourselves.
And is all this effort actually giving us protection, and from what?
And look at the damage we are doing to people, in the the third world.
And how many more incidents are there, like the tomato example Herr Bert gives?

Mel - he didn't once mention eliminating borders. That's the point we're trying to make. Please don't confuse the two. Remember that you initially brought up the EU as an example to follow. You're now telling Q and I that it's NOT an example to follow. I'm afraid our comments are being unfairly taken out of context.

If you go over various posts on TP, you'll see my stance on foreign aid to Africa and how developed countries are not living up to our expectations. Again, that is a different topic. You wanted to talk about borders. Instead you are using my comments to make a case about foreign aid. You are misrepresenting what I'm saying.

[ Edit: Edited on Feb 13, 2007, at 9:48 AM by tway ]