Skip Navigation

Religion anyone?

Travel Forums Off Topic Religion anyone?


Last Post

21. Posted by Herr Bert (Moderator 1384 posts) 9y

Well if I could create an experiment to recreate the big-bang, than you would have noticed, because it would have most likely been the end of the world.

Unlike in religion you can check scientific evidence. If somebody claims that he is in contact with a God, you can't. It's not that I can check his telephone bill to see that she/he made a couple of long-distance phone calls.

Sure scientist have there own fields in which they are experts, just like in any profession, and understanding it, is difficult for you and me. I think the works of Shakespeare is still more popular than the works of Stephen Hawking.

My point is that in science, you can tell you have a theory, but sooner or later you will be proven right or wrong. Religions will tell you, they are right, without room to question. This a fundamental different way of thinking. So bringing these two paths together is almost impossible. And in my view, also not a good thing, because to be able to do scientific work, you need to set aside your personal believes to work objective.

We did not reduced ourselves to dust and atoms, we already were. But we are still the same humans, with the same needs, and that as the dominant species on this planet, have to take of the Earth. As humans we can make this a good place to live (and maybe with same other planets in the future). If somebody likes to think that he/she get's a little help of a divine entity every now and then, that's fine. I don't, but that doesn't make us different.

22. Posted by Pardus (Respected Member 2356 posts) 9y

Just to be awkward, hehehe. How do we know that something is right in science? (I mean we as the 'common' people not the scientists). We are being told that a theory has been proven or accepted by the science community but the details are far to complex and complicated for us to comprehend. So we take their word for it, after all they are the specialists. But isn't this just another form of believe?
Now let's look at miracles. Somebody claims he's seen the Madonna for instance. Then the Vatican sends out his specialists in order to check if it is a miracle or not. So again, we have a group of people making the decision and we can only believe (or not belief whatever the case).
At the end of the day it all comes down to belief (in God, science, the flying spaghetti monster, etc..) because this world is far too complex for us to comprehend. I don't think any belief is wrong, it's what you do with it. For me it's terribly arrogant trying to shove ones point of view down somebody else's throat. What I believe is right therefore you are wrong. I am all for religious tolerance (including secularism) but I absolutely can't stand any sort of missionary!!!
But to get back to the original topic - I was baptised as Protestant, went through the motions (just not to offend anybody) got into arguments with a religious teacher and then decided in my mid twenties that I don't want to pay money for something I don't believe in. I've always been drawn to an animist view and I am still defining my religion.

23. Posted by stinet (Budding Member 37 posts) 9y

Interesting topic!
I consider myself as a unitarian. Even though, I wonder if it is possible if we all "believers" believe in the same thing, just in different ways? Does that make sense at all?

24. Posted by Herr Bert (Moderator 1384 posts) 9y

@ Pardus, you can also be too paranoid. How can you know if scientists are right? Study, the matter. Okay some things will be to complexed, but if 'we' normal people can't understand, there will be another scientist to question the matter, and maybe come up, with something better. Scientists don't keep their mounths shut, when somebody publishes something, that is crap. They will question it, try to do experiments to discard his work etc. If everybody would except what a random scientist would say, than you could say it is the same as a religion, but that would also mean that science doesn't work anymore. Btw, scientific work is published, so very transparent. (if it is theory, they will tell you it is a theory).

We are talking about science, as if it would be one thing, but in fact there are hundreds of fields of research. Accepting prove from one field of science is easier, than more abstract science. Take a look at archeology. You can see the evidence laid out in front of you (after an excavation). If archeologists would find a whole bunch of roman coins in one place, it would be very likely that they have found a place were Romans lived. For other fields it is a little harder, but there is no one stopping you to study, so that you can understand.

[ Edit: Edited on Feb 22, 2007, at 7:50 AM by Herr Bert ]

25. Posted by Pardus (Respected Member 2356 posts) 9y

I am not having a go at science at all, I just want to show how much belief is around where you wouldn't expect it. Same with politics. We want to believe that the people in power have the best in mind for us as citizens.
And science has got things wrong quite often and with new technologies old theories have been proven wrong. That's the problem with religion. Religion is by its very nature conservative and the religious leaders will try and keep the status quo rather than adjusting to the situation.
Oh, and talking about Archaeology. To use your example, a pile of Roman coins can also mean that it's loot from a raid. There are theories built on that to support a Roman Invasion based on that kind of interpretation. People say 'Oh we found Roman artefacts so the Romans must have been here' while other people say that the quantity of artefacts is not sufficient to support that theory. Facts are that we know the Romans were contemplating invasion (written contemporary accounts), Roman artefacts found in Ireland (in certain spots in higher quantities than others). Based on that we draw conclusions and set up theories.
But I digress. My main point actually is that we should respect people's believes whatever they are regardless if we agree with them or not. If somebody commits a crime in the name of god we shouldn't blame the whole religion rather than the individuals and their supporters/leaders.
There are crimes committed with all sorts of justifications but at the end of the day it's down to human nature. Homo Homini Lupus est. (Man is Man's wolf) and it's easier to go with the flow rather than fight the current.

26. Posted by Clarabell (Travel Guru 1696 posts) 9y

All you need is love.

27. Posted by Pardus (Respected Member 2356 posts) 9y

Quoting Clarabell

All you need is love.

Oi Clara, those pills are for your patients, not for you!

Next dance please...

28. Posted by Herr Bert (Moderator 1384 posts) 9y

And so you perfectely make my point, if an archeologist doesn't do his work well, there is always someone there to tell him other wise. (if he would only taking into account the coins, he/she would be a bad archeologist). Imagine archeologists digging up the British Museum in 4000 years time. They would come to some crazy theories, before understanding they are digging up an old museum. :)

You should believe what you want to believe, but have an open mind for other ideas, religions, cultures. Or maybe better said except other people for who they are. But that also means, accepting people, that according to your religion, are sinners. (I mean You as in every person)

29. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 9y

Pardus you made my point right on as well...

I understand what you are saying Herr Bert, that science is testable. But I don't think for a minute we can say the observer is not part of the equation. As a human we can't be objective observers, I don't think it's possible. We all have our emotions, past experiences, morals, ethics bound to every action or observation we make.

I'm not downing science either, i'm just trying to tie science and religion together as both equal sets of beliefs in the workings of the universe.

Many religions are testable. For example, 99% of religions speak of ways to bring love and compassion into your life... you could just take their word for it as most do, or you could test and experiment.. see if it works for you. Another case is Buddhism. They are adapting there religious views based on the findings of science.

30. Posted by Pardus (Respected Member 2356 posts) 9y

Quoting Herr Bert

And so you perfectely make my point, if an archeologist doesn't do his work well, there is always someone there to tell him other wise. (if he would only taking into account the coins, he/she would be a bad archeologist). Imagine archeologists digging up the British Museum in 4000 years time. They would come to some crazy theories, before understanding they are digging up an old museum. :)

I agree, but the problem is (especially with stuff like History) that there's always crackpots who write books based on outdated or made up theories and if only read that particular you may take it as the truth. And those kind of books tend to be much more 'exciting' than any convential publication. The same with religion, I think. The nutcase preacher blasting and damning from the altar is much more impressive than the scholarly 'let's try and understand each other' type.
But the main point I was trying to make is that people need to belief in something, it's only human. You can't prove everything. I think it's the balance that makes it, there's good and bad in everything and you have to pick for yourself what works for you. Unfortunately people like to be told what to think because they don't like thinking for themselves or are afraid of sticking their head out of the crowd.
And what irritates me are people who insist that their way is the only way and everything else is wrong.
Anyway, I am just bored and ramble here, my apologies if anyone got bored. It's your own fault, you could have stopped reading at anytime you wanted. But you're still reading so you're even more to blame, aren't you? You just can't get enough, can you. You have to read on and on compulsively until there's no more letters. You might miss something really important. But hey, this is me typing here, so the chance are very slim that there's anything important is coming out but still you're reading. Interesting isn't it? The letters just go on and on and you're still not used the back button, haven't you? You just keep on reading and reading until it's all over. But hey, if you're still reading this I recommend you get a hobby. How about golfing or flyfishing? Or Dwarf Tossing? Or maybe you should go for a walk or something rather than sitting here staring at the screen. Or when was the last time you called a member of your family? Maybe this would be a good time? But seriously now, go away! Stop reading!!!! No, I mean it, I am going to stop typing now so you are forced stop reading! Still here? Okay, I am stopping now... See, I've stopped typing but you're still reading on... Maybe you should get a paper and look for ads for puppies. That may be good for you, a little walk with the dog... Okay, I'll stop typing now, I am sure you have better things to do than sitting reading and wondering if there's anything sensible coming up... The answer is NO, there isn't anything sensible coming up so beat it... Come on, buzz off... You know how to use the back button, don't you?
Ah well, I am off now anyway, have a nice day...