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61. Posted by james (Travel Guru, 4123 posts) 30 May '07 13:52

Quoting Herr Bert

Quoting magykal1

James, I believe very strongly that you are wrong and I would put good money on you never having known a gay couple who have brought up children.

I wonder what any gay members of Travellerspoint would think of your comments on the 'gay community'? Maybe you think they should post somewhere else?

Is a bisexual, close enough?

As I have been on a trip, let me tell you that I think that James has the impression that what he sees in some gaybars and on the gaypride-parade is the norm in the gayworld. He couldn't be more wrong. It would be saying that what you see on the Carnavalparades in Germany is the norm for Germans!

Sure a lot of young (and some older) gays, lesbians and bisexual want to express their way of life in an outrageous way, but believe me that the majority doesn't. If they find their partner for live, most of them settle down, just like everybody else.

Oh really? So why then, when it comes to places to live, are gay people numerically concentrated in your typcial "gay area"? Or is this just some sort of evil, statistical stereotype and your average suburb has just as many gay people that are simply hidden and blended in with everyone else? Don't make me laugh.

62. Posted by tway (Travel Guru, 7274 posts) 30 May '07 14:31

Quoting james

Oh really? So why then, when it comes to places to live, are gay people numerically concentrated in your typcial "gay area"? Or is this just some sort of evil, statistical stereotype and your average suburb has just as many gay people that are simply hidden and blended in with everyone else? Don't make me laugh.

James - I see what you're trying to say here, but I think it's a huge misconception.

Montreal has what's popularly known as the "gay village" - with a high concentration of gay bars, after-hours clubs, gay-themed stores, and so on. Yes, a high number of gay singles and couples live there - just like a high concentration of hippe-wannabes live in the hippyesque section of Montreal known as the Plateau. But the only 2 people I work with who live in the gay village are straight as arrows - and all the gay people I've ever worked with have lived in the suburbs. I house-sat for one of them last year, and I might as well have been at my aunt and uncle's house.

63. Posted by james (Travel Guru, 4123 posts) 30 May '07 15:58

Quoting tway

Quoting james

Oh really? So why then, when it comes to places to live, are gay people numerically concentrated in your typcial "gay area"? Or is this just some sort of evil, statistical stereotype and your average suburb has just as many gay people that are simply hidden and blended in with everyone else? Don't make me laugh.

James - I see what you're trying to say here, but I think it's a huge misconception.

Montreal has what's popularly known as the "gay village" - with a high concentration of gay bars, after-hours clubs, gay-themed stores, and so on. Yes, a high number of gay singles and couples live there - just like a high concentration of hippe-wannabes live in the hippyesque section of Montreal known as the Plateau. But the only 2 people I work with who live in the gay village are straight as arrows - and all the gay people I've ever worked with have lived in the suburbs. I house-sat for one of them last year, and I might as well have been at my aunt and uncle's house.

I know it's a shock to the system, but I also know some gay people. In fact, I know some of them extremely well (but not that well )

The ones that I know very well do not live in a typical gay area, and haven't done for years. Having said that, they're about to sell up and move back to where the "action is", but that's besides the point.

But there is no misconception. We all have gay areas of our cities that have a concentration of gay people living there compared to other areas. This area has all the facilities that a gay person wants. It represents the gay "scene" and gay people have specifically moved there and set up "pink businesses" to cater for the residents - supply and demand. This is a fact.

That's not to say that gays don't live in other areas - and that's not what I'm saying. But their numbers are extremely small as a percentage of the total population.

64. Posted by Herr Bert (Moderator, 1370 posts) 30 May '07 16:56

about 10% of all people are gay. I will leave it up to you to judge if that is a small group or not. In most cities they will live in every neighborhood around town, just like straight people.

Sure a lot of gays like or want to be living in a certain neighborhood, but you see the same happening with rich people (BelAir), with immigrants (Chinatown) students, etc etc. So that is not purely a gay thing, but a reasonable logical thing to happen as groups from within a city.

Another reason is of course exceptance. Living in a neighborhood were you can just be yourself and walk hand in hand with you friend, or giving him a kiss in public, makes a lot of difference in everyday life. In a more conservative part of town, you are stared at when you do that, and that also is just not what you want, and that makes it uncomfortable to live there.

I think the bottomline is that most gay people, are just normal people, that want to live a pretty normal (boring) live, just like everybody else. This is however not the site of the gayworld you see in the media. There the focus is on the outrageous, the glamour and the camp, that you often see at a gaypride, or some gaybars. I have to say that some gays want to be different from the rest, so they want to maintain this picture, the outside world has, another group (and I think it is growing) is asking questions if for instance a gaypride, should not be done in a different way. (for some gays, it is the last place they would go.)

65. Posted by Herr Bert (Moderator, 1370 posts) 30 May '07 17:14

But there is no misconception. We all have gay areas of our cities that have a concentration of gay people living there compared to other areas. This area has all the facilities that a gay person wants. It represents the gay "scene" and gay people have specifically moved there and set up "pink businesses" to cater for the residents - supply and demand. This is a fact.

I presume you are talking about gaybars, which in a lot a cities here in Europe are just part of the regular area where people go out, and in a lot of cities this area is for a large part consists of so called mixed bars. Other places I would think about are the more sex orientated places like sauna's. If you think that this is weird, then also see, that these places are also there for straight people, and the same is true for prostitution. But please know that just like in the straight world, only a small group will ever go to a prostitute, but of course it happens. (in a lot of cases, married men with families, that are not openly gay)

Just as other shops, that compliment eachothers business these businesses seek eachothers company in the same street or area. You would be a poor businessman, if you would choose a location on the other side of town, when you know your potential customers are in another part of town. That's why there is usualy one area in a town, that is considered the gay-area. More an economical reason, then something else.

I am just curious, what you think that the needs of a gay, lesbian or bisexual are? Do you really believe that the straight world and the gayworld are so different from eachother as it comes to needs?

66. Posted by james (Travel Guru, 4123 posts) 30 May '07 18:31

Quoting Herr Bert

But there is no misconception. We all have gay areas of our cities that have a concentration of gay people living there compared to other areas. This area has all the facilities that a gay person wants. It represents the gay "scene" and gay people have specifically moved there and set up "pink businesses" to cater for the residents - supply and demand. This is a fact.

I presume you are talking about gaybars, which in a lot a cities here in Europe are just part of the regular area where people go out, and in a lot of cities this area is for a large part consists of so called mixed bars. Other places I would think about are the more sex orientated places like sauna's. If you think that this is weird, then also see, that these places are also there for straight people, and the same is true for prostitution. But please know that just like in the straight world, only a small group will ever go to a prostitute, but of course it happens. (in a lot of cases, married men with families, that are not openly gay)

Just as other shops, that compliment eachothers business these businesses seek eachothers company in the same street or area. You would be a poor businessman, if you would choose a location on the other side of town, when you know your potential customers are in another part of town. That's why there is usualy one area in a town, that is considered the gay-area. More an economical reason, then something else.

I am just curious, what you think that the needs of a gay, lesbian or bisexual are? Do you really believe that the straight world and the gayworld are so different from eachother as it comes to needs?

I'm not specifically talking about gaybars, prostitution or saunas. I actually doubt that there are many prostitutes in the major gay area of Sydney, and I don't really think that gays would make up a major portion of a prostitute's clientele. If a gay guy wants to have sex, I imagine that it wouldn't be too difficult to find a willing partner.

In Sydney, there are not too many gay bars outside of the one or two known gay areas. I wouldn't say that there are none, but there'd be one or two at the most. In fact, I couldn't name one if I had to. Similar to Europe really; gay areas are known as having a pretty good night life and so they attract straight people also.

The tangible needs of a gay person are no different from anyone else's needs. But like most genres of society (eg. goths, surfers, muslims, emo's, etc), they seek out their own types, congregate in their own areas, and go where they feel that they belong. With gay people, these areas are generally in the inner city and have a sub culture of drugs, sex and sleaze. This is what attracts gay people and must be what they find exciting. Actually, this is how gay culture promotes itself and likes to differentiate itself from the rest of society.

The only other real evidence of gays living in the wider suburbs of Sydney is the "phone me for anal sex" and "meet me here for a bl*wjob" type of messages scawled all over the insides of public toilets in the majority of parks. I played football/soccer for years all over Sydney and let me tell you that this type of stuff is in just about every public toilet located in a park. Real charming stuff.

67. Posted by james (Travel Guru, 4123 posts) 30 May '07 18:40

Gay people make up 10% of the population, and live in every town in most major city? That's bullshit. I'm not going to trawl the web for statistics that prove what I say or disprove what you are saying, but empirically this is false.

From what I've experienced and seen, I'd say that the number of gay people in society would be more like 2% - 3% at most.

I'm not saying this because I "want" it to be less. I just don't see it or see evidence of it, and I don't believe it.

68. Posted by Herr Bert (Moderator, 1370 posts) 31 May '07 02:35

With gay people, these areas are generally in the inner city and have a sub culture of drugs, sex and sleaze. This is what attracts gay people and must be what they find exciting. Actually, this is how gay culture promotes itself and likes to differentiate itself from the rest of society.

No James, this is what some gay people find exciting, not all of them, so don't label every gay as someone who wants that type of 'entertainment'. And still if you go to a 'normal' party or bar, you see the same thing happen.

Most gays feel that they are labeled different, and to some degree, we are different, there is no denying that ;). It's the group that shouts the loudest gets all the attention, but don't confuse this group with being representative for all the gays, lesbians and bisexuals in this world, because they aren't. (Well you could even raise the question if bisexuals should be fitted into the same group as gay and lesbians, but that a whole different discussion)

And yes the 10% is the actual figure, that Alfred Kinsey came up with. Some estimates are lower, but they seem to be too conservative. It also depends on which terms you would call somebody gay. (in Kinsey's research people were labeled as gay, if they predominantly had sex with somebody of the same sex, for the last three years, other research only focusses on couples.)

69. Posted by james (Travel Guru, 4123 posts) 31 May '07 03:18

Quoting Herr Bert

With gay people, these areas are generally in the inner city and have a sub culture of drugs, sex and sleaze. This is what attracts gay people and must be what they find exciting. Actually, this is how gay culture promotes itself and likes to differentiate itself from the rest of society.

No James, this is what some gay people find exciting, not all of them, so don't label every gay as someone who wants that type of 'entertainment'. And still if you go to a 'normal' party or bar, you see the same thing happen.

Most gays feel that they are labeled different, and to some degree, we are different, there is no denying that ;). It's the group that shouts the loudest gets all the attention, but don't confuse this group with being representative for all the gays, lesbians and bisexuals in this world, because they aren't. (Well you could even raise the question if bisexuals should be fitted into the same group as gay and lesbians, but that a whole different discussion)

And yes the 10% is the actual figure, that Alfred Kinsey came up with. Some estimates are lower, but they seem to be too conservative. It also depends on which terms you would call somebody gay. (in Kinsey's research people were labeled as gay, if they predominantly had sex with somebody of the same sex, for the last three years, other research only focusses on couples.)

I don't know who Alfred Kinsey is, but there is no way that 10% of the population is gay. The evidence of this, remembering that gay people " live in every neighborhood around town, just like straight people", just doesn't exist. Go anywhere, to any "normal" suburb, and show me the gay people. I can see Asians, I can see muslims, I can see kids and old people, I can see the odd mormon, surfie, goth and skater, but I don't see much evidence that 10% of the population is gay.

I know literally hundreds of people from all walks of life; a true cross section of society. I doubt that I know more than about 8 to 10 gay people - at most. I'd say that most people would be the same. There's no way that gay people are 10% of the population.

On the issue of gay people and the sex, I stand by my point. The gay community flaunts it's sexuality and promotes the whole gay lifestyle as being sexually charged. I believe that this is the norm, and the gay person quietly living out their "boring" lives in the suburbs is certainly not the norm. Because there are some that live like that doesn't make it mainstream. This idea of gay people living in the 'burbs with the white picket fence just like everyone else is mostly bullshit.

70. Posted by Fun Bobby (Budding Member, 115 posts) 31 May '07 03:46

" (in Kinsey's research people were labeled as gay, if they predominantly had sex with somebody of the same sex, for the last three years, other research only focusses on couples.)"

In Fun Bobs research men were labeled as gay, if they sucked c0ck, took it up the wrong'un or listened to Barbara Streisand

And just to add another twist to this discussion. How come some gay men are just like any other fella except they fancy blokes, but others are as camp as Christmas? I know of a fella who was having a party after a night out, some camp queen came in and he was told to stop acting that way or he would be kicked out, so he just stopped actking that way, whats that about?