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Women (few) behave BADLY !!

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1. Posted by kombizz (Full Member 1416 posts) 9y

In my visit to Istanbul recently, I visited many mosques.
I noticed that ONLY few lady tourists follow the Islamic Sharia and cover their heads, and majority DO NOT RESPECT the Islamic Law entering the holly places like mosques.
I personally think by NOT respecting the other culture, somehow we are insulting those cultures or religions.

If the Turkish authorities in those mosques did not provide the head covers, then I would say it was their fault, but then I saw loads of facilities including full boxes of head covers, chadur for ladies to cover their head but they did not bother to use them !
I WONDER WHY?

Why few women try to be selfish and ignorant about respecting tp the other cultures?

In one instance my partner saw bunch of European ladies without any head scarves, in the Lady section of a mosque kneeling down on the floor and another lady was taking photo of them !

I simply google the following statement "Respecting other cultures as a tourist" and found more than a million links about it.
search result

I found the following link that although it is written for tour managers, but would be useful to read and understand.
Tour Manager and good Practice
Tour Manager - a messenger for cultural understanding and peace
here

RESPECT

2. Posted by mim (Travel Guru 1276 posts) 9y

I agree thats really bad, when I was travelling I tried to respect local customs for instance wearing clothes that covered me when I visited temples and such.

But lets face it some people are just plain ignorant and will float around in a bubble unconcerned with whats going on around them and that goes for many male as well as female travellers...

3. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y


Kombizz
Very few religions, if any, respect women.
Is there even one religion in existance, that respects women as being equal to men?
Although u are right in a way. Maybe these women should cover their heads, and the rest of their bodies. I would always recommend, that in islamic countries and countries that are not as modern as many of the ones here in the West, women travelers wear whatever clothing will protect them from prejudice and judgement.

This is just one of a few sexist threads/posts, I have seen on TP. The moderators did not remove any of them. When people state that there should be separate rules for women, than there are for men, then that is sexist. Why is this not recognised on TP?
I ask for this thread, to be deleted by the moderators. Kombizz should reword it, if he wants to give travel advise. "Women behave badly" suggests that women should accept restrictions and prejudice against them.

Mel

[ Edit: Edited on Jun 27, 2007, at 7:00 AM by Mel. ]

4. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.


Kombizz
Very few religions, if any, respect women.
Is there even one religion in existance, that respects women as being equal to men?

I'm unclear... Please explain how non-Islamic female tourists who are uninformed about or chose to ignore the required head-covering in Mosques equates to religions (Islamic and in general) not respecting women?

Although u are right in a way. Maybe these women should cover their heads, and the rest of their bodies. I would always recommend, that in islamic countries and countries that are not as modern as many of the ones here in the West, women travelers wear whatever clothing will protect them from prejudice and judgement.

Following the tenents of a given faith (ie: head coverings for women) is showing respect for that faith. Granted the average traveler/tourist does not research these issues prior to entering a mosque or house of worship. This does not mean that offense by this action has not been taken by the worshippers. It also doesn't make it sexist because head coverings are required. In Islam, a kufi (cap/turban) is recommended and in several sects, a requirement for men entering the mosque.

I am not supporting any doctrines of any faith, but I do believe that moderization/westernization has aided in the lack of respect people currently display in general. At one time, covering one's head and wearing one's "Sunday best" was a show of respect when entering a house of worship. Now, it's basically "come as you are" just as long as you show up. Asking a woman to cover her head is a requirement of Islam. We're not discussing complete body-covering of the local female population but rather the behavior of outside visitors.

This is just one of a few sexist threads/posts, I have seen on TP. The moderators did not remove any of them. When people state that there should be separate rules for women, than there are for men, then that is sexist. Why is this not recognised on TP?
I ask for this thread, to be deleted by the moderators. Kombizz should reword it, if he wants to give travel advise. there should be separate rules for women, than there are for men

1) Are you including the sexist threads where men are the target or only the ones aimed at women? Sexist statements (unless aimed specifically at an individual member or are profane in nature) are not against the rules. The interpretation of "sexist/sexism" is an individual one. It seems the TP Moderators have a narrower view of what constitutes an unacceptable sexist remark than the "few" you intimate to that have not been deleted.

2)Kombizz did not mention there should be separate rules for men and women. He commented about certain women not following the requirements of a particular religion. I'm not saying he worded it well, nor that it isn't somewhat bias, but he also did not say "there should be separate rules for women, than there are for men".

3) As stated countless times in countless threads, if you have an issue with a particular thread and/or member, make your case in the appropriate manner - posting in the thread is NOT it. Because this is not a thread that requires being deleted, it is being moved to Off Topic instead. Commenting about the way Moderators "moderate" and what they should do is not up to you.

4)I ask for this thread, to be deleted by the moderators. Kombizz should reword it, if he wants to give travel advise.
The thread was posted in General Talk which means just that. It was not posted in a "destination" forum therefore it was not out of place - until now.

5)"Women behave badly" suggests that women should accept restrictions and prejudice against them.
That line suggests nothing of the sort other than someone thinks a few women behaved badly.

Isa now returns this thread to it's originally scheduled topic. Any further comments about Moderators will be edited/deleted.

[ Edit: Edited on Jun 27, 2007, at 10:11 AM by Isadora ]

5. Posted by Hien (Moderator 3906 posts) 9y

Quoting kombizz

In my visit to Istanbul recently, I visited many mosques.
I noticed that ONLY few lady tourists follow the Islamic Sharia and cover their heads, and majority DO NOT RESPECT the Islamic Law entering the holly places like mosques.
I personally think by NOT respecting the other culture, somehow we are insulting those cultures or religions.

If the Turkish authorities in those mosques did not provide the head covers, then I would say it was their fault, but then I saw loads of facilities including full boxes of head covers, chadur for ladies to cover their head but they did not bother to use them !
I WONDER WHY?

Why few women try to be selfish and ignorant about respecting tp the other cultures?

In famous Malaysian mosques that are thronged by tourists, there are people on duty at the entrance to make sure that all visitors who do not meet the dresscode put on a special robe with hood (provided by the mosque) to cover their awrah before they are allowed to enter.

Are there people ensuring this in the Turkish mosques you visited? If no, then one can't really blame all on the women for not putting on the head covers. They probably didn't know about it. Whether they were selfish or ignorant, I feel it is the duty of the caretaker or management of the mosque to ensure and educate visitors about covering one's awrah when entering the holy place.

6. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 9y

Quoting Hien

Are there people ensuring this in the Turkish mosques you visited? If no, then one can't really blame all on the women for not putting on the head covers. They probably didn't know about it. Whether they were selfish or ignorant, I feel it is the duty of the caretaker or management of the mosque to ensure and educate visitors about covering one's awrah when entering the holy place.

I tend to agree with ...it is the duty of the caretaker or management of the mosque to ensure and educate visitors about covering one's awrah when entering the holy place but I also think it is the responsibility of the traveler to be informed... It's a double-sided sword.

As I think about this, I keep reflecting back to a Catholic Church in Montego Bay. It is a very famous "catherdral" which has a long and colorful history. (The front grounds consist of a cemetery where Jamaicans are buried on one side and Jewish soldiers/families on the other.) But, not to get off topic, in order to "promote" the continuation of the tourist trade, the church allows visitors to enter and photograph the cathedral even during regular prayer sessions. They felt it was a way of showing the outside world that Jamaicans were friendly and spritual people. This may have changed since my last visit, but it is this type of "tourist acceptance" that also causes "tourists" not to realize they have shown disrespect in some other house of worship.

We have been invited to a wedding following the tenents of the Sikh faith. The invitation is 20 pages long and describes what is and is not acceptable during the ceremony. One thing that was not mentioned was photographing the ceremony. We have been told that taking pictures may not be allowed. This is something I had not considered investigating as taking pictures during a "conventional" (westernized) wedding is normally accepted. We will now follow up on this information so we do not unintentionally violate any of the laws or rituals of the Sikh faith.

It's easy to forget that not everyone allows everything. It's also easy to see how the women described above (one taking the picture while the others knelt) may not have realized they were behaving inappropriately. People do get caught in the moment of things. It's not an excuse but it is a reality and until someone else, who can point out their mistake with kindness does so, these types of situations will continue to occur.

Too many people expect that someone else should act a certain way without any guidance. Yes, it is a personal responsibilty to be informed about other cultures (especially when traveling) but it is also the responsibility of those cultures to teach others. Education, acceptance and respect are all parts of a two-way street.

7. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 9y

One presumably can go up to these women and introduce them to the Sharia ways in a nice friendly way. Is it not the responsibility of those in the knowing to teach those that don't know ?

8. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 9y

I think that the manager of the mosque should ensure that the rules are being followed.

If the manager doesn't care and doesn't enforce the rule, then you can hardly complain when people don't bother.

Mel, with due respect your post was immature, paranoid drivel.

9. Posted by mim (Travel Guru 1276 posts) 9y

now where's that cheerleader emoticon when you need it...?

10. Posted by opospa (Travel Guru 1837 posts) 9y

I think they just dont really know about the local cultures and rules.

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