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Women (few) behave BADLY !!

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41. Posted by wotthefiqh (Inactive 1447 posts) 9y

Quoting kombizz

In my visit to Istanbul recently, I visited many mosques.
I noticed that ONLY few lady tourists follow the Islamic Sharia and cover their heads, and majority DO NOT RESPECT the Islamic Law entering the holly places like mosques.
I personally think by NOT respecting the other culture, somehow we are insulting those cultures or religions.

If the Turkish authorities in those mosques did not provide the head covers, then I would say it was their fault, but then I saw loads of facilities including full boxes of head covers, chadur for ladies to cover their head but they did not bother to use them !
I WONDER WHY?

Why few women try to be selfish and ignorant about respecting tp the other cultures?

In one instance my partner saw bunch of European ladies without any head scarves, in the Lady section of a mosque kneeling down on the floor and another lady was taking photo of them !

RESPECT

I expect that very few female (or male) tourists from the Dar al-Harb would have any knowledge of Sharia Law.
Their intent is to enjoy the sunshine and see the local sights, which in the case of Istanbul is The Blue Mosque, Topkapi, Aghia Sophia, etc.
I visited the Hindu temple Uluwatu (in Bali) twice in the early 90's and the custodians had a kiosk outside where you had to hire a sarong for a few thousand Rup before you could enter.
My wife and I visited the Blue Mosque twice in 1997 and I can't recall any such kiosk or restriction.
Perhaps that was due to Ataturk's secular philosophy.
The offence you mention is primarily due to a lack of understanding and not an intentional insult.
Then again, respect is a two-way street.
I can't understand why some moslems emigrate to the West and demand respect for religious and cultural values which are anathema to 21st century democracy.

42. Posted by emma1979 (Full Member 126 posts) 9y

I have a copy of The Travellers Companion book and it has a wee section on the ban of bikinis in Malaysia and how this has meant a severe drop in tourist numbers. It also points out that the "Muslim Opposition Party which rules the state of Terengganu, has also segregated men and women at pools and hotels and has prohibited unisex hair salons, karaoke outlets and pubs." It then asks the question, "do tourists have the right to act as they please, even if they are shocking to their host country's belief system and culture, or does a state have the right to impose restrictions on people's freedom?"

Just thought I'd share that as it seems relevant.

43. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 9y

Quoting wotthefiqh

I can't understand why some moslems emigrate to the West and demand respect for religious and cultural values which are anathema to 21st century democracy.

Same reason people move next to airports and complain about the noise. This is becoming a "me-first, you don't count" kind of world...people are becoming increasingly selfish when they should be even more open to communicate than ever before.

Many Westerners have no concept of Islam at all, so of course they will "disrespect the customs" when entering a mosque or other place of worship as a tourist. I don't think it's done intentionally, and on the same token, if those in charge of the mosque want visitors to follow their customs while inside, they better damn well tell people up front what is expected of them. None of this crap "this is a mosque and you must understand our ways (even though we're not telling you what our ways are) and if you violate our ways we will be offended". Islam, lighten the f*ck up when it comes to "disrespect". Perhaps if Islam did a better job of explaining it's ways and customs to the west, there wouldn't be so much "disrespect" going on in the world today. It's just as disrespectful for some extremist Muslim assbag to be calling for Death to America. Hey, I'm an American....what the hell did I ever do to you or your Faith? You really want Death to America? Come on down and show me what you got....and take off the damn mask so I can see your face!!!

Whatever happened to just being polite to each other, knowing full well that we don't understand everything about one another? Is it too much to ask to be a little tolerant?

As an aside, and at the risk of being rude, I have to ask: Mel, for someone who seems to think she is enlightened, why do you call for banishment or censorship of things you personally don't like? There are many women in the Muslim world who are happy to wear headscarves. You find it demeaning to them....I do as well, but I don't begrudge them the right to do so. They don't seem to find it demeaning. Are you therefore insinuating that many Muslim women are not as intelligent as you because, in your eyes, they demean themselves by wearing headscarves? It's not necessary to reply to that comment....I just want you to think about what you're saying.

44. Posted by Hien (Moderator 3906 posts) 9y

Quoting emma1979

I have a copy of The Travellers Companion book and it has a wee section on the ban of bikinis in Malaysia and how this has meant a severe drop in tourist numbers. It also points out that the "Muslim Opposition Party which rules the state of Terengganu, has also segregated men and women at pools and hotels and has prohibited unisex hair salons, karaoke outlets and pubs."

As far as I'm concerned, except for maybe a couple of states on the east coast of the peninsula, there's no ban of bikinis in Malaysia. Just go to any beach or hotel pool that with lots of foreigners and you can see many bikinis clad women. The only ban I know of is nudity.

The ruling party of the federal government had recaptured the state of Terengganu in the last general elections, and have since reversed most of the rules that were laid down by the muslim opposition party. However, the same muslim opposition party are still ruling the state of Kelantan (the only state ruled by opposition), though with just a one- or two- seat majority in the state legislative assembly.

It then asks the question, "do tourists have the right to act as they please, even if they are shocking to their host country's belief system and culture, or does a state have the right to impose restrictions on people's freedom?"

Though I do not agree with some restrictions set in Malaysia, I strongly think that everyone should follow the rules and laws in wherever they are.

As for "people's freedom," one would ask, by whose definition?

[ Edit: Edited on Jun 29, 2007, at 12:18 PM by Hien ]

45. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting beerman

Same reason people move next to airports and complain about the noise. This is becoming a "me-first, you don't count" kind of world...people are becoming increasingly selfish when they should be even more open to communicate than ever before.

Many Westerners have no concept of Islam at all, so of course they will "disrespect the customs" when entering a mosque or other place of worship as a tourist. I don't think it's done intentionally, and on the same token, if those in charge of the mosque want visitors to follow their customs while inside, they better damn well tell people up front what is expected of them. None of this crap "this is a mosque and you must understand our ways (even though we're not telling you what our ways are) and if you violate our ways we will be offended". Islam, lighten the f*ck up when it comes to "disrespect". Perhaps if Islam did a better job of explaining it's ways and customs to the west, there wouldn't be so much "disrespect" going on in the world today. It's just as disrespectful for some extremist Muslim assbag to be calling for Death to America. Hey, I'm an American....what the hell did I ever do to you or your Faith? You really want Death to America? Come on down and show me what you got....and take off the damn mask so I can see your face!!!

Whatever happened to just being polite to each other, knowing full well that we don't understand everything about one another? Is it too much to ask to be a little tolerant?

As an aside, and at the risk of being rude, I have to ask: Mel, for someone who seems to think she is enlightened, why do you call for banishment or censorship of things you personally don't like? There are many women in the Muslim world who are happy to wear headscarves. You find it demeaning to them....I do as well, but I don't begrudge them the right to do so. They don't seem to find it demeaning. Are you therefore insinuating that many Muslim women are not as intelligent as you because, in your eyes, they demean themselves by wearing headscarves? It's not necessary to reply to that comment....I just want you to think about what you're saying.

I think the above is turning this thread into an out and out us against them screaming match. I sure hope nobody else joins u, in it.
I think this thread should only be about whether it is disrespectful or badly behaved of women to not wear the headscarfs, in the Turkish temple or not. If Kombizz actually made a thread in which he said, "Death to America", then the above would possibly be appropriate, even if I would say it in a less emotionally charged way myself.
U have also ranted quite a bit, about what I said and believe. This rant of yours in not what I said and believe. It is your interpretation of what I said and believe.

46. Posted by emma1979 (Full Member 126 posts) 9y

Quoting Hien

Quoting emma1979

I have a copy of The Travellers Companion book and it has a wee section on the ban of bikinis in Malaysia and how this has meant a severe drop in tourist numbers. It also points out that the "Muslim Opposition Party which rules the state of Terengganu, has also segregated men and women at pools and hotels and has prohibited unisex hair salons, karaoke outlets and pubs."

As far as I'm concerned, except for maybe a couple of states on the east coast of the peninsula, there's no ban of bikinis in Malaysia. Just go to any beach or hotel pool that with lots of foreigners and you can see many bikinis clad women. The only ban I know of is nudity.

The ruling party of the federal government had recaptured the state of Terengganu in the last general elections, and have since reversed most of the rules that were laid down by the muslim opposition party. However, the same muslim opposition party are still ruling the state of Kelantan (the only state ruled by opposition), though with just a one- or two- seat majority in the state legislative assembly.

It then asks the question, "do tourists have the right to act as they please, even if they are shocking to their host country's belief system and culture, or does a state have the right to impose restrictions on people's freedom?"

Though I do not agree with some restrictions set in Malaysia, I strongly think that everyone should follow the rules and laws in wherever they are.

As for "people's freedom," one would ask, by whose definition?

I agree with you - I think it's a bit of a no-brainer that people should follow the laws and rules of wherever they may be. And on the bikini issue - I should really keep up to date with my literature ;)

47. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

I think the above is turning this thread into an out and out us against them screaming match. I sure hope nobody else joins u, in it.
I think this thread should only be about whether it is disrespectful or badly behaved of women to not wear the headscarfs, in the Turkish temple or not. If Kombizz actually made a thread in which he said, "Death to America", then the above would possibly be appropriate, even if I would say it in a less emotionally charged way myself.

Wow, Mel....I wouldn't have ever imagined that you, of all people, could so completely misinterpret something so simply stated. Please re-read my post and this time, try to see it for what it is.

For clarity sake, it was not my intention to attack Islam...I have no issues with the religion save for many of its' members wishing me death. I can live with that. Good luck in the quest. I do not wish death to Turkey, or Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. All I was asking for was tolerance from the mosque and from the tourists.

Quoting Mel

U have also ranted quite a bit, about what I said and believe. This rant of yours in not what I said and believe. It is your interpretation of what I said and believe.

If 9 lines of verse constitute a rant, I am humbled. I didn't know you thought so much of me.

You have posted a dozen times in this thread, and nearly all of them strayed from the topic of visitors to mosques in Istanbul, do be so kind as to explain "rant" to me. I have merely observed your behavior on this website, and every time a subject comes up that you disagree with, you speak of "banning" or "deleting" it. Yet you seem to champion individual rights. Ultimately, I would like to know dear Mel, who is going to pick up the trash when you're done cleaning the world?

Now, Kombizz......have you spoken with any of the tourists you noticed violating Sharia? Perhaps it is simply ignorance. As a peaceful and understanding religion, Islam should really make an effort to explain it's sensitivities in a broader manner to those who may not be aware. I think it's a compliment that people to want to visit shrines, temples, etc., but the caretakers have an obligation to make sure that visitors are aware of potential offenses. Remember what I said about this becoming a "me-first" world....people are becoming more selfish and not respecting others. When was the last time you saw someone holding open a door for someone? Or NOT stopping in a doorway to have a cell phone conversation, oblivious to traffic around them?

48. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 9y

Quoting mikeyBoab

Quoting james

God loves people like me, and people like you. In fact, he loves us all.

Actually James, sorry, I just checked, God loves everyone except you - sorry about that mate. What a bummer.#

Well God even loves androids like your good self!

49. Posted by james (Travel Guru 4136 posts) 9y

Quoting beerman

Ultimately, I would like to know dear Mel, who is going to pick up the trash when you're done cleaning the world?

If you supply the beers, I'll put my hand up as will mikeyBoab and Jase007.

And if there are any bikini wearing girls from Malaysia that want to chip in, then more the merrier I say

50. Posted by Herr Bert (Moderator 1384 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

Quoting Herr Bert

Just behave, like you are asked to, and for that matter: behave everywhere. If you don't know if there are special rules, ask for them, or at least be a bit reserved.

What if u are told, that the rules are that all bisexuals are to wear gloves, when entering a certain building? What would u do?
1. Wear the gloves, because it is important to behave, by obeying the rules, and afterall owners of buildings are entitled to make rules, even if their buildings are open to international tourists?
2. Wear the gloves, but feel discriminated against?
3. Not enter the building at all, as a show of protest?
4. Other? Please explain.

If there would be a perfectly good explaination why bisexuals, should wear gloves, then I probably would wear gloves, if I would feel like it was purely to discriminate I would probably not visit.

My point is that if you enter a building of any kind, (can ne a church, can be a bar) you know that there are different 'rules and values' in almost everyone of the, and by entering you acknowledge these rules, and act like them. (you don't go into the Dom in Cologne, and start singing Sympathy for the devil out loud. If you do that in a Karaoke bar in Japan, you will get applause for the same thing. If you were to go into a gaybar, and start lecturing the people there that the pope says that being gay is wrong, what do you think the response will be? My prediction is that you will find yourself outside of the bar, in a couple of seconds. (although in some places, they like a good discussion) If you say that in a church, you might raise a few eyebrows, with people who disagree, but that's it. You see: same message, different stage, different response.

That a building is open for international tourists, doesn't mean the rules for visitors have changed. At the vatican, you are asked to dress in a way that is respectful (no shorts, cover your shoulders), if you don't, you are send away. Most people forget, that when you enter a church or a similar building, you are (in most cases) entering a privat area. If you are a guest at somebody's house, you also don't walk up to the fridge to get yourself a beer, and you don't go round looking in cupboards. The same applies for these places, if you are visiting, as a believer or a tourist, that shouldn't make a difference.

Some cultures have different rituals, that we look upon as strange (and in some cases we even laugh about). But that something is different or even weird, doesn't mean it is worse or better, it means it is just different. I am pretty sure, that if people in 2507 look back at 2007, and our western 'rituals' people will also laugh. We now, laugh at people who think that the world is flat, and people that think that the enitre universe is revolving around the Earth. But the people a couple of hundred years ago believed it. Does that make them fools? With our knowledge of today, you might want to say: yes, how could they ever believed that?. The same will be true about our era, in the future.

Seeing Cathedrals, Mosques etc, for me is always a thing that causes mixed feelings. First of all I am an atheist, so for me it has no religious value. As a lover of architecture, you have to admit that in most cities, these places are the most beautiful in town, and when I think about how much it has cost to build a building like that, and how the money was gathered (in my opinion robbed, from people who had better spend it in a different way), it makes me feel sad. Do I as a bisexual have a problem to visit religious sites? not really because I am not religious, so I don't mind what they think about me on a personal level, but I know that a lot of people have a hard time being gay, lesbian, bisexuals and being religious. Although I can't think of one thing why a religion would not/can not expect homosexuals in there community.

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