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Women (few) behave BADLY !!

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91. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting Not Lost

However, have you ever thought that maybe a huge majority of Muslim women dont think there's anything wrong with wearing a headscarve and thus, the rule has remained?

I have, and I agree.
Some want to wear the head scarves. Some have never considered any alternatives. Some are forced to wear them, or face barbaric punishments and/or alienation from their group.
It is not the rule in that temple in Turkey, that women must wear head scarves. Nor is it the law in Turkey, that they must wear them. Yet Kombizz is saying that they should wear them anyway, in the temple. And who would we be showing respect to, if we wear the headscarves, and why is it respectful? It is certainly not respecting Kernal Ataturk. Maybe we should give our respect(not sure if respect is the correct word here. Maybe sympathy is more appropriate) to those who suffered, so these magnificant temples could be build. I wonder if those who visit the temple offer a prayer for those people, or are they too busy tut tuting at "disrespectful" women", who are not wearing headscarves. Looking at the bigger picture, I feel as entitled to visit religious temples, as any religious person, if I want to.

And yes, I do agree, that we TOLERATE how others wish to live their lives, to a certain extent. I respect that some women wish to wear head scarves and that should be their choice.

92. Posted by lagered (Budding Member 230 posts) 9y

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt it custom for everyone to cover their heads in an Islamic mosque?

93. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Lagered

Just because something is customery, does not mean that it should remain in society.
That would be an excuse for sexism, rascism, murder and violence amongst other nasties.
And no, it is not customary for everybody to cover their heads, or else be in violation of islamic rules.
It is only customery for women to do so.

94. Posted by lagered (Budding Member 230 posts) 9y

Maybe you are right about Turkey, but other countries that have a fundamentalist sect of this religion require both men and women to cover their heads.

While I don’t understand this practice I don’t feel the need to condemn them for their point of view. Covering one's head is not the same as sexism, racism, murder, violence or anything else. If they said "women only will wear this because they have smaller brains and no one can trust them because they should be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant" then yes that would be sexism and wrong.

You cannot go to another country and condemn them for the way they live their lives and practice their religions/culture because it is not your place no matter if you are a man, woman or child. If you have a large problem with them, don’t go and do not buy their goods. By not going or buying anything made by this country you will reduce their GDP which is the ultimate source of power. The same will happen with religion. How do you suppose a religion will support itself if people stop going and paying? I suspect that this method would work faster than going and then complaining about their practices.

[ Edit: Edited on Jul 12, 2007, at 3:05 PM by lagered ]

95. Posted by Brendan (Respected Member 1824 posts) 9y

Hi everyone, it's been awhile. I was browsing the off topic forums and came upon this thread; it's striking really, the thought and sometimes lack-of thought that has gone on here.

They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as the authority.

~Gerald Massey
poet

Let me see if I have gotten this straight; Kombizz has made a post commenting on the actions and attitudes of (some) women at mosque in Turkey. Citing their lack of respect, ignorance, and moral short comings. Mel responds with the idea that perhaps the ideology and not the patrons are responsible for the injustice. What then happens is a flurry of accusations against Mel; multiple requests to stay on topic, being told to just ignore what she doesn't agree with, that freedom is in the eye of the beholder and all are free of you look at the right angle... in other words to sit down and shut up.

The strange thing, or maybe not so strange, is that Mel is right. Having women cover themselves up is a substantial form of oppression around the world. In complete contrast, in the west women are oppressed by unattainable levels of fake beauty. Many people said here that if Mel or anyone does not agree with the rules that they can just stay outside. The scary thing isn't the law, it isn't the oppressive nature of said law... the scary thing is the blind following of the masses.

Somewhere in the last 10 pages someone mentions that many women in the Muslim community agree with, and support the oppression of women. What is your argument? If a slave is born into slavery, knowing no other freedom, knowing no other way to live, and they joy it, does that make it correct?

Once again, hi! It's been a long time.
Brendan

P.S. This post is being made in good nature, with the idea that all posts are on topic. That everything that a person is important to the conversation. Topics flow and move like rivers, they are meant to, it is as natural as human language.

96. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 9y

Quoting Brendan

Somewhere in the last 10 pages someone mentions that many women in the Muslim community agree with, and support the oppression of women. What is your argument? If a slave is born into slavery, knowing no other freedom, knowing no other way to live, and they joy it, does that make it correct?

That's seems like a very biased view on religion, B. I'm not religious, but religion (yes, even the Muslim one) has done a number of wonderful things and continues to do a number of wonderful things for the world as well. It's given some people hope, and mental strength to live and do great things most importantly. Sometimes being told what to do and when to do it is a good way to live. Fewer worries, and stresses. Less of a loss of reference.

My biggest disagreement throughout this thread is that everyone thinks they're right. There is not really one right for everyone. To insist on our own view would really be trying to enslave others. We should clearly communicate what we believe, because who knows maybe it might change someone's mind, but we should not support the notion of forcing our views on others.

97. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting lagered

While I don’t understand this practice I don’t feel the need to condemn them for their point of view. Covering one's head is not the same as sexism, racism, murder, violence or anything else. If they said "women only will wear this because they have smaller brains and no one can trust them because they should be in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant" then yes that would be sexism and wrong.

As a matter of fact, this is exactly what is said and believed, in Islamic countries. In Saudi Arabia and Iran it is even said, in the constitution, that women cannot be relied upon to understand and be accurate, like men can. Because of this they have fewer, and in some counties far fewer rights than men have, by law.
Afghanistan is different. There are laws in the constitution, to protect womens rights. Women do not have to wear a burka, amongst other restrictions that used to be imposed on them. Most women still wear the burka, because they fear the consequences they will suffer in their homes and in society, if they dont.
Discrimination against women is severe in most/all countires, where islam is dominant in society and even more so in countries where it is the law.

98. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting lagered

You cannot go to another country and condemn them for the way they live their lives and practice their religions/culture because it is not your place no matter if you are a man, woman or child. If you have a large problem with them, don’t go and do not buy their goods. By not going or buying anything made by this country you will reduce their GDP which is the ultimate source of power. The same will happen with religion. How do you suppose a religion will support itself if people stop going and paying? I suspect that this method would work faster than going and then complaining about their practices.

It will not work faster Lagered. Governments will have to introduce heavy legistlation, about how our industries trade. Otherwise it will not work. A few individuals not buying or not visiting a place will make almost no difference.

As for your objection to my condemning other peoples way of like, those who created the UN international code of human rights do the same.

99. Posted by mikeyBoab (Travel Guru 5077 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

As for your objection to my condemning other peoples way of like, those who created the UN international code of human rights do the same.

How??

100. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting mikeyBoab

Quoting Mel.

As for your objection to my condemning other peoples way of living, those who created the UN international code of human rights do the same.

How??

Well here is an example

There is an ethnic group in Turkey.
Honour killings are part of their culture and traditions.
Basically, to them it is reasonable to kill somebody who has offended them, in a certain way, in order to gain respect and save face.
The human rights watch groups say that these killings are an abuse of human rights, as layed out in the UN international code of human rights. The ethnic group argues, that the human rights people are trying to damage their culture, by wanting them to stop doing what they have always done. I agree, with the human rights watch groups. It is irresponsible to idly believe that people should be allowed to abuse the human right of others, with the excuse that it is their culture, or their country and not for us to condem.

[ Edit: Edited on Jul 13, 2007, at 8:41 AM by Mel. ]

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