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Minimum Wage?

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81. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

U dont think that Canada offers a safe refuge, for asylum seekers?
Surely, u believe that people comming from countries where their safety is under threat should be taken in, by the first safe country they can get to? Well, maybe u dont think this should happen. Not everybody does.:(
Yes, the Chinese government would not offer any protection. In fact it is the Chinese government, that people often need to be protected from.

Of course I do. But they still must pass the interview process to get minimum wage or what ever salary they are able to gain. I also think Canada conviently does too little for the trained workers (like my family and my girlfriend) who come here legitimately believing in the Canadian way of life, intending to work and build a better country.

I also think the people in the west listen too much to its popular media, and that the Communist Chinese government has done more for its people and workers than most people in the west are aware of or give them credit for.

I think you need to stop seeing the world with rose coloured glasses. Just stops you from seeing the train coming to hit you.

[ Edit: Edited on Aug 8, 2007, at 11:27 AM by Q' ]

82. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

Quoting beerman

Is it really necessary to paint all companies with the same brush of "unfairness"? You have no idea at all how many companies are far above the ethical curve.

No, I could not put a number on how many are above the ethical curve.
Could u?

Yes.

Most Ethical Companies

Quoting Mel.

Quoting beerman

I don't want my tax dollars going to subsidize some ignorant little children who don't like the system.

Your tax dollars are more likely to be funding the Iraqi war.

Nice. Because all Americans are bloodhungry savages, didn't you know?

Quoting Mel.

Quoting beerman

I've busted my ass to get to where I am now and I'll be damned if some piss-ant kid is coming in here and making my salary right at the start because someone thinks everyone should earn the same for the same job.

Shouldnt somebody who is younger and faster get payed more than some cranky burntout old man?

Nice again, but no they shouldn't. I'm shocked that someone as fairminded as you dear Mel would stoop to such personal, harsh, stinging criticism. If I didn't know better I'd think you were referring to me....;)......but that's OK, I'm sure that many people in the world are used to having other people do and think for them. Do you play video games?

83. Posted by Isadora (Travel Guru 13926 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

Quoting Isadora

This "sharing" of salary information with others ultimately benefited you as you did receive a pay raise. What it also demonstrated is that you, and the other 10 employees, had little regard for and/or were incapable of keeping confidential information confidential. From your description, all of you chose to exchange this information, which was within all of your rights. The fact that you openly used this knowledge as leverage to negotiate greater personal gain truly borders on unethical behavior by an employee. Such an action brought the trustworthiness of one third the workforce into question and rightfully so. Basically, if you have chosen to share that knowledge, what other confidential information has been breached? Not only did it undermine the manager, it also undermined the department as a whole, including the 20 people who were not part of this information exchange. Again, it is not the business of the employees to know what everyone earns. If a person is not capable of negotiating better wages for themselves based on their own performance then that's a skill they need to work on. But, using one's fellow employees for personal gain is unacceptable.

Well, why did not fire me Isadora?
Is that not what should happen to such an unethical person?
And isnt it what should happen, to a person who undermines the manager?
Answer: It would be unwise fire an employee, who is making too much money for the company, but it would be nice if they could have such an employee, at a bargin price.

Since you have already answered your own questions with what you consider to be the correct response, I'd be wasting yours and my time countering.

What is it u like about keeping this information secret?

It has absolutely nothing to do with what I like or dislike and has everything to do with an employee's personal privacy. Unless it is company policy to make salary information known to everyone then that information falls under private (personal) information. An employee can decide if they want to "share" that information with other employees. The point was other people's private information was used for one person's personal gain - a raise. Did everyone else receive a raise because they used the now public private information as leverage? If not, they should have in the name of "fairness".

Suits your managment style, does it?

I will repeat, it has nothing to do with "management style" and everything to do with an employee's private (personal) information. Using someone else's salary information as a lobbying tool for one's own increase in income is grade school politics. If you were the stellar employee you claim, your work should have been proof enough to merit the increase. Compare your work to someone else's to show similar excellence as that information is already public, but salaries obviously were not.

Need to have an unfair advantage over people, do u?

Oh please...

Dont have a reasonable explanation for the decisions u make, so it is better if they are kept secret?

Seems you have decided that I don't without my response.

Or maybe u favour your friends and click, when it comes to granting pay raises and promotions?

Where do you come up with this stuff??? I highly recommend applying for a managerial postion to gain some first hand knowledge about managing others. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts when you decide to buck company policy because it doesn't coincide with your own personal agenda concerning fairness in the workplace.

84. Posted by Purdy (Travel Guru 3546 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

Quoting Purdy

If an employee who feels a company is being discriminatory or unfair - whether in salary or career advancement or whatever have every given right to take action and call into question the decisions made.

HR depts (UK LAW) must report to governing bodies on salary, age,sex and religion of employees on an annual basis - those who do not face severe pennalties.

How can the employee assess if (s)he is being treated unfairly, if the information to show this is kept secret? And how can a person fight age discrimination, if it is legal, for a company to pay younger people less?

HR departments must report, but will the employees of their company have access to these reports?

Again the law has legislative measures to protect employees.

Surely if an employee feels they are being treated unfairly and has the reasons - that is assessment enough. If an employee feels they are not getting a fair salary for the job they do THEN they have the right to raise a complaint through proper channels - whether within the company via HR department or via an independent arbitor such as the Labour Relations Agency who can if required take the given company to a tribunal to make them account for their actions or if the employee is a member of a union then they can take up the case for them.

Plenty of routes to make their grievance heard.

Again the fact the UK has a minimum wage structure which is incrimental dependent on age - this has NOTHING to do with discrimination - this minimum wage is to protect the lower wage earner brackets. As long as someone whether 18 or 35 has the correct qualifications and experience and are the best candidate suitable for the position then their salary should be in accordance. That is NOT discrimination.

Look into UK employment law and indeed EU employment law relevant to all member states you will see how in recent years the law has been tightened and improved to help all groups - perhaps if you look at the CIPD website it will be a good starting point - HERE

Pregnant woman have the full backing of the law - in fact in the UK this situation has improved immensely in recent years - woman get up to 9 months maternity leave which can be extended longer - some employers (whilst not required legally and l know a good few) pay full pay and indeed a previous employer as an incentive to mums to come back to work paid a bonus to return to work mums of 3 months salary!

Some employers actively seek out those over 50+ because of their experience and life knowledge and have made it part of their corporate culture.

You mentioned the fact of women being under paid compared to male colleagues - true that is true and l wont argue that point BUT the situation is improving and this is day and daily - Rome wasnt built in a day and it will take a decade or more to improve the gap yet - but it is improving.

Racial discrimination is highly legislated against - again if you check out the website l have highlighted you can see for yourself.

Tarnishing ALL companies as being discriminatory(which is discriminatory in itself) - from what l am reading and perceiving of your post is the point you are making is a naive sweeping statement.

No one here Mel has argued with you on the fact that there are employers out there who exploiting less fortunate members of society, but the MAJORITY of companies know it is now just not worth it and simply bad business practice and indeed its unlikely they will stay in business long.

85. Posted by tway (Travel Guru 7273 posts) 9y

Quoting Mel.

Quoting beerman

I've busted my ass to get to where I am now and I'll be damned if some piss-ant kid is coming in here and making my salary right at the start because someone thinks everyone should earn the same for the same job.

Shouldnt somebody who is younger and faster get payed more than some cranky burntout old man?

Ignoring the cranky burnt-out part, let me say this. When I started out as a copywriter, I had to work twice as hard as the more senior writers. When they left at 5 or 6, I was staying late and arriving early to catch up. Why? Because I was horrible! I had zilch experience and I had to make mistake after mistake and rewrite a lot of stuff and take a lot of criticism till I got things right. And the senior writers? They grasped the briefs right away, knew what questions to ask, and pumped out concepts and copy in half the time. They worked "less" and were paid (I assume) A LOT more than me - and that's exactly how it should be. Why should rookie me have earned the big bucks when I knew nothing? Companies hire rookies because the time they take to teach the person is balanced out by the lower salary. The more you learn, the better you work, and the more you'll make.

Every bit I had to struggle has made me who I am today. If I had it all handed to me on a plate, I'd be a sorry, pathetic sight indeed.

86. Posted by Purdy (Travel Guru 3546 posts) 9y

Isadora

I highly recommend applying for a managerial postion to gain some first hand knowledge about managing others. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts when you decide to buck company policy because it doesn't coincide with your own personal agenda concerning fairness in the workplace

Oh well said Isa!

I really believe you dont critisize until you walk a day is someone elses shoes. Sometimes you may not necessarily agree with company policy (and lets face it who doesnt - we all bitch about it from directors to the janitors) but usually the good out weights the bad. If you dont agree with it then get out - no one is forcing you stay in such a position.

87. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 9y

Quoting Purdy

Some employers actively seek out those over 50+ because of their experience and life knowledge and have made it part of their corporate culture.

As the saying goes "With age comes wisdom". Not all jobs require strong backs and quick hands. In my field, some older workers become technical experts, and are kept on by the company to mentor and train younger people (however, they're not managers and have no say over financial or HR matters). This is done to pass on experience and skills from one generation to the next.

88. Posted by beerman (Respected Member 1631 posts) 9y

Quoting Purdy

I really believe you dont critisize until you walk a day is someone elses shoes.

YES!! 100%!!! But then again, are those shoes provided by the people for the people? And are they 100% organically fair shoes? Do they discriminate against any feet? Can everyone wear them, or only the downtrodden in society? Do they come in blue?

Extremists, like leftists and rightists, love to point out what's wrong with other people with out having the vaguest idea what their own faults are. It's always others that are wrong, never the extremist. But to be fair, we really shouldn't have any labels. Then everyone will be the same. Won't that be fun??

89. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting Q'

Of course I do. But they still must pass the interview process to get minimum wage or what ever salary they are able to gain. I also think Canada conviently does too little for the trained workers (like my family and my girlfriend) who come here legitimately believing in the Canadian way of life, intending to work and build a better country.

I also think the people in the west listen too much to its popular media, and that the Communist Chinese government has done more for its people and workers than most people in the west are aware of or give them credit for.

I think you need to stop seeing the world with rose coloured glasses. Just stops you from seeing the train coming to hit you.

Just asking out of interest. What do u think the Canadian government should do, for your family and girlfriend? I tend to agree, that our rich countries should do as much as we can, for people comming from countries like PR China.

I think China does not do enough for its people and does too much to them. One does not have to take the word of the popular media. One can look at the human rights reports. So many executions, organ harvesting, torture, no freedom of movement, forced sterilisations.....

I havent seen the world through rose tinted spectacles for years. Sometimes I wish I could again, just for a while.

90. Posted by Mel. (Travel Guru 4567 posts) 9y

Quoting beerman

Do you play video games?

Well no. Do u?
And I dont mind at all, that u are jacking this thread, instead of starting a new one, about video games.:)

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