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am irish, can I enter spain without compications?

Travel Forums Europe am irish, can I enter spain without compications?

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11. Posted by mpprh (Full Member 114 posts) 8y

This has been in operation for about 12 months. It seems to be limited to passengers flying into Spain from UK, IE, CH, & MO. I am British citizen, French resident and do not need to notify my arrival for Madrid - Marseille flights.

Ryanair website says :

Ryanair are required to collect the passport or EEA issued National Identity Card details of all passengers departing from the UK, IRELAND, MOROCCO AND SWITZERLAND to Spain or the Canary Islands/Balearic Islands.

The land borders with France remain open - I crossed one to do some shopping in Spain 2 weeks ago with no problem.

Peter

[ Edit: Edited on Nov 24, 2008, at 1:14 AM by mpprh ]

12. Posted by monkeycat (Full Member 109 posts) 8y

The information Spain is requesting is the information found on your passport, so by entering the country from outside the Schengen area you're agreeing to offer that information anyway (by presenting your passport to border control). I don't know how you can disapprove of this, it's not like you're required to give any further information like where you will stay, places you visit or anything else like that.

When you arrive in Spain the police only look at your passport. They do not normally take any electronic record of it. So therefore they do not have your details on file. I just find the idea of gathering "intelligence" on everyone for "security" and "prevention of terrorism" absurd and futile, as well as being very misguided and pointless.

13. Posted by mojorob (Moderator 1047 posts) 8y

Quoting monkeycat

The information Spain is requesting is the information found on your passport, so by entering the country from outside the Schengen area you're agreeing to offer that information anyway (by presenting your passport to border control). I don't know how you can disapprove of this, it's not like you're required to give any further information like where you will stay, places you visit or anything else like that.

When you arrive in Spain the police only look at your passport. They do not normally take any electronic record of it. So therefore they do not have your details on file. I just find the idea of gathering "intelligence" on everyone for "security" and "prevention of terrorism" absurd and futile, as well as being very misguided and pointless.

Yes, but you are still offering that information to them. It doesn't matter if it's just looked at or scanned and checked on a computer, the information is still offered. There are also other uses of such information than you suggest, such as statistics to see tourism/travel trends (both in & out). It's also not just about prevention of terrorism, but also validating travel documents (a border post, or the API approach is pretty much the only place a forged document could be detected).

14. Posted by Sander (Moderator 4834 posts) 8y

Quoting mojorob

Yes, but you are still offering that information to them. It doesn't matter if it's just looked at or scanned and checked on a computer, the information is still offered.

By walking on the street, you are offering the information of your movements to the world at large.
Yet if someone were to follow you around all day while you're out walking, keeping detailed records of where you went, storing those records for all eternity in a database accessible by tens of thousands of people with the vaguest associations to the nebulous concept of 'the government' (as well as people working at all the third-party IT companies who're hired to look after that database), that would make a huge difference.
Still, you're "offering" the information by walking on the public street!

This is one of the reasons why the current influx of cctv cameras and the like is so scary. There is no "reasonable expectation" of privacy when out in public, but the completely unnecessary abuse of this lack of restrictions not only wastes tons of money, but has very real and dangerous consequences. (For one, it's yet another step in the slow boiling of the frog, and people are starting to think it's "normal" and "not all that bad" when their every movement is being tracked.)

I'm completely with monkeycat on this; Spain's requirements for this information being provided are stupid, waste money on security theater (there is absolutely no way it increases real security), and are actively harmful by eroding the basic human right of privacy.

[ Edit: Edited on Nov 25, 2008, at 4:41 PM by Sander ]

15. Posted by mojorob (Moderator 1047 posts) 8y

Walking around on the street and entering a country are two completely different things, and cannot really be compared. Yes, I agree the amount of CCTV cameras on the streets is a scary thing, and most of them unnecessary.

However when entering another country, the government of that country needs to decide who to allow in, and who not to allow in. You are choosing to enter a country that is not your own, it is not your decision to make whether or not you're allowed in and on what basis this is judged. It is up to the country you're entering.

Also with CCTV cameras there's another difference, in that when going out in public there shouldn't be an implicit acceptance that you're every move may be tracked. Whereas with the API of Spain the information they're requesting is found on your passport which is what you offer when entering the country anyway. Spain isn't requesting where you're going to stay, how long for, what you're going to do etc etc which would make the comparison fairer with CCTV's and going out in public as you mention.

The requirement from Spain for this information to be provided has always been there since its been necessary to present a passport to enter the country. The only difference is that the information is now being requested before you go rather than on arrival. Just like with Australia and the ETA, which was established in 1996.

If the information gathered in such systems is the same as that found on your passport (and no more), then there are no privacy concerns. It only becomes a privacy concern if more information is requested.

16. Posted by Sander (Moderator 4834 posts) 8y

Quoting mojorob

Walking around on the street and entering a country are two completely different things, and cannot really be compared.

But the "offering of information" in both cases can be compared. (Case law states that there can be no expectation of privacy when in public, just like you can't expect it when you're offering your passport.)

However when entering another country, the government of that country needs to decide who to allow in, and who not to allow in.

And after that decision has been made, there is no reason to retain that information. Additionally it's completely silly to be this selective in who to require the information from upfront, and only from people who're travelling by air. It's security theater; it only inconveniences travellers and gives money to the companies implementing the database.

Also with CCTV cameras there's another difference, in that when going out in public there shouldn't be an implicit acceptance that you're every move may be tracked. Whereas with the API of Spain the information they're requesting is found on your passport which is what you offer when entering the country anyway.

In the past when you offered your passport, the information on it wasn't retained. In the past, when you offered your presence on the street, the information about it wasn't retained.

Spain isn't requesting where you're going to stay, how long for, what you're going to do etc etc which would make the comparison fairer with CCTV's and going out in public as you mention.

I don't care about "fair" comparisons. I care about showing how totally ridiculous it is that they're requesting this information. Yes, my example is an order of magnitude scarier, but the information gathering in both examples is wanted for exactly the same reasons, and sadly the legalities surrounding them are pretty similar, too. After enough little increases in the temperature of the water, such as this one by Spain, people will just as easily accept 24/7 tracking by cctvs, and make all the same arguments about why they don't care as you are making now. (If you'd go back in time 20-25 years and tell people then what's currently happening and how easily we accept that, they'd be completely horrified, and wonder if the soviet union had won.)

The requirement from Spain for this information to be provided has always been there since its been necessary to present a passport to enter the country. The only difference is that the information is now being requested before you go rather than on arrival. Just like with Australia and the ETA, which was established in 1996.

Just because it's been done that long in Australia doesn't make it equally bad.

If the information gathered in such systems is the same as that found on your passport (and no more), then there are no privacy concerns. It only becomes a privacy concern if more information is requested.

Your passport contains a unique identifying number, which can be used to tie all recordings of your passport together, and thus track your movements. The Dutch privacy oversight organization actually has been coming down hard on Dutch hotels which copied passports (rather than only looking at them to ensure that the name on them was identical to the name on the booking information they had), because the copy would contain that same number, and that was judged a privacy violation.

17. Posted by monkeycat (Full Member 109 posts) 8y

Opps seem to have set off a whole conversation here about civil liberties.

Sander, I couldn't have expressed it better myself.

Yes I offer my passport to show that I am who I say I am. That does not mean that anyone has the right to know when and where I have been and where I am going.

Besides, if I were a terrorist, I would be using fake passports. So what is the point in asking for the info anyway?

Secondly, since the API information I give is never accurate anyway, it shows that whatever system they have for detecting terrorists does not work as they don't even know when my details do not match up with my passport.

So we come back to my original premise that the API is unnecessary and pointless as well as being an invasion of my privacy.

18. Posted by petrajj (First Time Poster 1 posts) 7y

ok, to clear things. No you don't ned to give any info if passing over land into Spain. There are some boarder controls, you MIGHT be stopped, and all u need is your passport. And yes, it is also true that u need to submitt ur passport details with ur airline before FLYING into spain. Easily done on the websites eg Ryan air. This is because of national security, u know things that go boom, this rule applies to those departing from Ireland, UK and moroco to any airport in Spain. All EU countries will soon apply this. no big deal.

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