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Air France Flight Crashes-- Unfortunate incident

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11. Posted by Redpaddy (Inactive 1004 posts) 7y

Interesting. Just read that link you posted. It goes to show that official conclusions and alternative theories can be so different.

[ Edit: Edited on 07-Jun-2009, at 08:21 by Redpaddy ]

12. Posted by Redpaddy (Inactive 1004 posts) 7y

Scary stuff.

[ Edit: Edited on 07-Jun-2009, at 08:27 by Redpaddy ]

13. Posted by vegasmike6 (Travel Guru 3562 posts) 7y

Quoting Redpaddy

Interesting. Just read that link you posted. It goes to show that official conclusions and alternative theories can be so different.

The Air France reaction reminds me of the crash of Egypt Air flight 990 off of Nantucket, Oct. 31, 1999. I had left Martha's Vineyard in Sept. '99 and had been on Nantucket for a day trip earlier that summer. This air disaster really hit home as I was in the area one month before.

The NTSB did an exhaustive job investigating the crash. They brought up much of the wreckage and took several years to announce the results. To any objective observer, it is conclusive that the relief 1st Officer, Gameel Al Batouti forced flight 990 into the Atlantic. This is very clear on the flight data recorder (FDR). This first action that leads to the crash is that Al Batouti tiurns off the autopilot. Then engines are set to 0. Then the elevators are pushed down. The Flight Captain, Mahmoud El Habashy returns to the cockpit and tries to pull the nose back up. He is also heard on the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) asking Al Batouti to 'pull with me'. The FDR is clear, one person is pulling up on the elevators to keep flight 990 from crashing into the ocean, one person is pushing the nose straight down. The CVR is also clear. Pilot El Habashy is is asking: "why you are doing this", Al Batouti repeats "I rely on God". 14 times. When the report came out, the Egyptian gov't of Hosni Mubarak reacts swiftly. The Muslim religion's aversion to suicide has them denying the clear evidence of the CVR and the FDR. They advance other theories, none of which make any sense when you have the FDR and CVR to detail what happened. Mechanical failure, the Mossad/CIA were involved because the don't like Egyptians, US military shot it down, etc.

The Egyptian gov't to this day does not accept that Al Batouti would commit suicide and kill 216 others along with himself. How they reconcile this with the hundreds of Muslim suicide bombers that have killed thousands in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan in the last few years is beyond me. Not to mention the 3,000 people killed on 9/11/2001 when Muslim extremists fly jets into the Twin Towers. It does not appear to me that Muslims have a problem with suicide when they can kill others at the same time.

Take a look here an decide for yourself if national interests trump facts and science.

14. Posted by Redpaddy (Inactive 1004 posts) 7y

Then there are all the theories on Facebook and YouTube that the Twin Towers was all a conspiracy planned by politicians and that The USA astronauts didn't ever go to The Moon. Guess that's why there are so many different newspapers for sale on the same day - and thousands of TV and radio news stations. If they all reported the same stuff identically - there'd only ever be a need for just one of each.

15. Posted by bex76 (Moderator 3719 posts) 7y

An ex- Air France pilot was quoted as saying it was 'highly likely' that a bomb caused the crash. It does seem strange there was no mayday message so whatever happened was obviously very sudden. Lets hope they find the black box.

16. Posted by vegasmike6 (Travel Guru 3562 posts) 7y

Quoting bex76

An ex- Air France pilot was quoted as saying it was 'highly likely' that a bomb caused the crash. It does seem strange there was no mayday message so whatever happened was obviously very sudden. Lets hope they find the black box.

That is certainly possible, but unlikely. There is no question that flight 447 flew into violent weather, the 24
error messages prove that. The crew might of had their hands full just trying to keep the plane airborne. Unless the
FDR & CVR are extremely deep or inaccessible, they should be found with a remote robot. The 'black boxes' will be very helpful in determining what caused the crash of flight 447.

I would be more inclined to believe the 'bomb theory' if it was advanced by a senior pilot from Singapore Air rather than an Air France pilot. AF have a vested interest in it being anything but 'pilot error'. This is what the above posts were talking about. The Air France Concorde flight 4590 crash is still being debated and Continental Air is being blamed by the French for the crash. 'It is not our fault', is the official line from AF. AF knew the fuel tanks were vulnerable to being punctured from debris on the runway long before flight 4590 crashed. They also knew the tires on the Concorde were a problem. Over 70 incidents involving Concorde tires were documented between 1979-2000. The French did not take corrective action on their tires until after the crash of 4590. They also decided to protect the fuel tanks with Kevlar lining, after the crash of 4590. Not much consolation to the passengers on flight 4590. The Concorde was taken out of service in 2003.

I hope they do find the cause of flight 447 crashing into the Atlantic. The whole aviation industry needs to know so that steps can be taken to prevent a repeat disaster. But as it stands today, I will not be stepping onto an AF plane.

17. Posted by vegasmike6 (Travel Guru 3562 posts) 7y

Quoting Redpaddy

Then there are all the theories on Facebook and YouTube that the Twin Towers was all a conspiracy planned by politicians and that The USA astronauts didn't ever go to The Moon. Guess that's why there are so many different newspapers for sale on the same day - and thousands of TV and radio news stations. If they all reported the same stuff identically - there'd only ever be a need for just one of each.

I see your point, diversity of opinions is generally a healthy thing. However, there are some subjects where looking at both sides is basically pointless. I saw Geraldo Rivera once say: "I don't really need to hear Adolf Hitler's rationale for the Holocaust. There are not two sides to that story." I feel the same way after hearing Mahoud Ahmadinejad tell an audience at Columbia University that: A. There are no gays in Iran. That brought a howl of laughter. B. The Holocaust was a myth created by Jews. Little hard to see both sides of those statements. I can see why Israel won't have any dialog with Ahmadinejad. He not only denies the Holocaust, he has stated in print that Israel should be wiped off the map. A bit hard to have a meaningful chat with Iran when they think you should cease to exist as a country.

I once had a chat with a member of the Flat Earth Society. I thought it was just a spoof, sit around and have a chuckle about the earth being flat. I was wrong. I guess they actually believe that the earth is flat. I have better things to do with my time than to try and convince FES members that they are wrong. What next? A group that argues the gravity is just a hoax? Are we supposed to give them equal time when debating if gravity exists? I will leave that to the more egalitarian TP members.

18. Posted by Redpaddy (Inactive 1004 posts) 7y

I've given up getting angry - and trying to reverse people's opinions. Once someone is stuck in their ways, all I choose nowadays - is to either listen or walk away.
I know this is going off topic quite a bit, but then this Post has too - with a lot of interesting points being raised on the way.
Recently, Greater Manchester Council tried to push through a Traffic Congestion Charge. I was all for it, until I discovered that one of the high up official cronies on the 'Yes' Campaign Trail was also on the Committee of (now built and operational) Manchester Airport's second - unwanted and un-needed - runway. He, along with his team of exterminators, promised that every tree that was cut down (186,000 in total), two new ones would be planted. So far - seven years on, none have been replaced. I went along to one of the official meetings about the Congestion Charge (it was planned to be over three times the size of the one presently operational in London) and there he was. I stood up, asked him why anyone should believe his theories and proposals about them making Manchester a cleaner city - and that the Congestion Charge is no more than a money maker, that he made false promises about the trees at Manchester Airport - and was told either to leave the meeting or be forced to leave by security.
Incidentally, the final vote for the Congestion Charge (2,000,000 people received voting papers) was 80%-20% against it. Hooray.
My point of going off topic.... Who do you believe??
Why bother - huh??

19. Posted by Q' (Travel Guru 1987 posts) 7y

I love the sense of panic these things generate. Everything from veiled threats to boycott Air France, to "oh my god, we'll never find the black boxes", to calls for total grounding of the A330 fleet. My favourite is the one post I saw calling for all aircraft to be made from the same material as the black boxes, which are said to be "industructable". Good call ! But, what do you do with the stuff inside the airplane who would probably start bleeding from the eyeballs when subjected to 20+Gs ?!?

This investigation is still very early. We may be waiting for many more months before all the evidence is collected and examined. To make any conclusions or complaints is jumping the gun to say the least.

The other thing about air accidents (or any accidents) is that there's usually more than one "cause". There is usually a chain of unrelated events that should any one of those events not occur, the accident would never have happened. The air speed pitots may or may not be what initiated the accident, but if the aircraft had not been flying through those conditions, the accident may not have happened. Or if the aircraft had had its pitots replaced, it might've flown through the storms easily.

I'll just say that, from the moment I first saw the news report on this, I've said this one is going to be "interesting".

[ Edit: Edited on 08-Jun-2009, at 07:24 by Q' ]

20. Posted by Redpaddy (Inactive 1004 posts) 7y

I was always of the belief (well, for many years - anyway), that aircraft couldn't be brought down by lightning. Have any others heard the same?? Cos I'm sure I'm not isolated on this one.