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Visa/Residency Permit for Multiple Schengen Countries

Travel Forums Europe Visa/Residency Permit for Multiple Schengen Countries

1. Posted by CAandItaly (Budding Member 3 posts) 4y

I have read the various posts on visa issues (which are terrific), but haven't seen our type of situation addressed.

We are U.S. citizens living in Europe for 2 years or so. We received a type D visa for Italy, and have been here for about 9 months. Our visas are for elective residence, meaning not for work, and are good for 1 year. The Italian consulate told us that the visas are issued for 1 year, and that the residency permit that we apply for once in Italy then extends the time. As required, we applied for residency permits (a permesso di soggiorno) when we arrived, and have just received them (the Italian bureaucracy does not work particularly fast). One unfortunate thing is that the residency permits are only good for 1 year from the date we applied, so they're actually about to expire and we have to immediately apply to renew them.

Here are my questions. Any help from those with knowledge of the rules would be much appreciated.

1. Sometime around September, we would like to relocate to France for a period of time (3 or more months). My sense is that a 90 day stay would be fine, since by leaving Italy (where we were staying under a valid type D visa/residency permit) and heading to France we would start the 90 days in 180 days clock fresh. Is that right?

2. If we have valid Italian residency permits, would we be OK staying in France longer than 90 days? Or, once we're in France, can then apply for a residency permit there to stay longer than 90 days?

3. It's possible that when we're ready to relocate to France, we won't yet have our renewed Italian residency permits. We would have our residency permits from the first year, plus the receipts from our renewal application. I know for a fact that that's enough to stay in Italy legally (and is fine for showing immigration officials when entering or leaving the country), but I'm not sure how that kind of paperwork would be received in France.

Thanks for any help.

2. Posted by bentivogli (Travel Guru 2398 posts) 4y

1. Afaics you're correct: your stay in Italy ín this particular case hasn't counted towards the total of 90 days in 180, so the clock would start running when you leave Italy for one of its Schengen neighbours
2. I don't know: that depends on the terms of the Italian residence permit, which I am not familiar with. For the Dutch situation, it doesn't work that way. The authorities can enlighten you. I'm almost certain that you cannot apply for a residency permit in France while residing in Italy on a residency permit: that kind of stuff usually has to be applied for from your home country. The French authorities would be able to tell you more.
3. Afaics that's not really relevant: the first 3 months you'd be safe anyway, and anything after that you can probably not apply for unless you go home first. But again, I might be wrong.

3. Posted by CAandItaly (Budding Member 3 posts) 4y

Thanks, bentivogli. That's helpful, and consistent with my instincts.

4. Posted by t_maia (Moderator 3291 posts) 4y

Quoting CAandItaly

2. If we have valid Italian residency permits, would we be OK staying in France longer than 90 days? Or, once we're in France, can then apply for a residency permit there to stay longer than 90 days?

Quoting bentivogli

2. I don't know: that depends on the terms of the Italian residence permit, which I am not familiar with. For the Dutch situation, it doesn't work that way. The authorities can enlighten you. I'm almost certain that you cannot apply for a residency permit in France while residing in Italy on a residency permit: that kind of stuff usually has to be applied for from your home country. The French authorities would be able to tell you more.

The way I know it you have to apply from the country of residency. Since you are currently residing in Italy with a valid permesso di soggiorno your country of residency is Italy. You should thus be able to apply from Italy for a residency permit in France.

You should also know that there are special rules that make it easier for somebody who already holds a residency permit in one EU country to apply for a residency permit in another EU country. This usually only applies to people who have "indefinite leave to remain" and an unconditional work permit in one of the EU countries, but depending how France handles cases like yours you could fall under those rules too. Ask at the French embassy in Rome.

3. It's possible that when we're ready to relocate to France, we won't yet have our renewed Italian residency permits.

For the reasons I described above that should be avoided. You should renew your residency permits before you apply for the French residency permit. It would also be the cleaner way Schengen-wise, because:

1. Sometime around September, we would like to relocate to France for a period of time (3 or more months). My sense is that a 90 day stay would be fine, since by leaving Italy (where we were staying under a valid type D visa/residency permit) and heading to France we would start the 90 days in 180 days clock fresh. Is that right?

AFAIK You cannot leave Italy for 90 days to live in France if your residency permit for Italy has expired. If your residency permit for Italy has expired Schengen rules generally say that you have to leave Schengen. It is ok to travel to France for 90 days with a valid residency permit for Italy, but not without.

5. Posted by bentivogli (Travel Guru 2398 posts) 4y

Quoting t_maia

AFAIK You cannot leave Italy for 90 days to live in France if your residency permit for Italy has expired. If your residency permit for Italy has expired Schengen rules generally say that you have to leave Schengen. It is ok to travel to France for 90 days with a valid residency permit for Italy, but not without.

My mistake, you' re right. Your situation is identical to having a 'C+D' visa (only as a US citizen you're exempt from applying for a C-type visa). The C-part, which entitles you to 90 days travelling across the Schengen zone, is generally deemed to have commenced simultaneously with the Italian visa. After it expires, so does your right to stay in the Schengen area. Sorry for the confusion.

6. Posted by CAandItaly (Budding Member 3 posts) 4y

Thanks to both of you for your guidance.