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101. Posted by shunto (Budding Member 4 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

I appreciate the reply but I think you misread. I was walking and blew 0.09, not driving. Let that sink in for a second. I think you also misread the part where I clearly stated "Naturally I cant' argue something on paper", which in context of Miradax's post was something he mentioned as well.

Anyway, the third thing missed is Miradax's story which we didn't see a conclusion to. I'd be interested in his experience of trying to go about it "the proper way" where he was clearly citing some holes in the system

[ Edit: Edited on 03-Feb-2020, 11:29 GMT by shunto ]

102. Posted by leics2 (Travel Guru 1103 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

>I appreciate the reply but I think you misread.

I did and most fulsomely apologise for doing so (not sure why you mentioned the driving limit?).

That doesn't change the fact that you were arrested and you were (I assume....your post is not clear) found guilty of an offence. Did you commit the offence in the US (again, your post is not clear)?

Only Canadian border officers can decide how an offence in the Australian or US jurisdiction equates to offences in the Canadian jurisdiction and what effect, if any, it has on entry to Canada.

Miradax last posted a year ago, he is a UK citizen holding a US visa, his question related to an offence he committed in the USA and the fact that he could not access some of the information required for entry to Canada. It is, of course, entirely up to the individual whether he/she returns to update a forum thread.

As far as I can see your choices remain exactly the same: apply for an eTA question and tick either 'Yes' or 'No' to the relevant question (same applies to the US ESTA), apply for a Canadian visa & criminal rehabilitation at the same time or apply for criminal rehabilition and then, if it is granted, apply for an eTA.

[ Edit: Edited on 03-Feb-2020, 12:30 GMT by leics2 ]

103. Posted by Miradax (Budding Member 8 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

Hey mate,

I forgot about this thread, I should have probably posted an update on the situation.

I went down the official route. I tried to talk to someone about having my US visa count for entering Canada (as they share the same database) but there's no point of contact. The closest I got was a general enquiries operator actually in Canada who had no idea how to help. I ended up just having to complete the checklist.

I had to provide an updated ACRO (police check) which came back clear (I knew it would as I had done this for my US visa). Then I had to attend a local police station and pay for an official FBI fingerprint submission and send via post, then submit any court paperwork I had been given. For such a small offence it's almost a given that they will allow you in but you still need to show that you have completed the checks.

Entering Canada was a breeze compared to the States. The passport process is all automated via rows of machines that take your photo and give you a print out that you provide to an officer - job done! BUT I assume that any red flags that show up will mean you could be pulled aside.

If I were you, I wouldn't risk it. Even with the checks in place, I still stand in the queue worried about entry - for a couple of hundred dollars/pounds, it's not worth it.

I will be applying to have my record expunged so I no longer need to click "yes" to the arrest question - especially now we're out of the European Union. It isn't guaranteed to be successful but it's worth a shot.

I hope that helps.

Mark.

104. Posted by leics2 (Travel Guru 1103 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

Mark, thank you for coming back. It is appreciated.

How did you overcome the UCN number problem in the end ? Did you just leave the box blank on the form?

You have confirmed my feeling that Shunto should follow the correct procedure for having been arrested and (presumably) found guilty of a misdemeanor.

> I assume that any red flags that show up will mean you could be pulled aside.

Clear 'red flags' will automatically show up, of course...but it's also worth remembering that when entering Canada, like any country, people can be and are 'pulled aside' for numerous other reasons e.g. appearance (I don't mean ethnic origin), behaviour etc as well as simply at random.

105. Posted by Miradax (Budding Member 8 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

I honestly can't remember what I did with the UCN number, If I was able to leave it blank, I think I probably did.

All this was worth it for a wicked 2 week trip to Banff National Park with my wife!

106. Posted by leics2 (Travel Guru 1103 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

Glad it was worth the hassle! :-)

107. Posted by shunto (Budding Member 4 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

Mark, thanks for coming back and closing your story! I've got some questions if you don't mind?

Just to clarify, was the ACRO police certificate from home in the UK, or did you have to apply for one in the USA? It's strange how you need to get fingerprints for the FBI for entering Canada. Was that because the arrest was in the USA?

Also, as a potential conversation starter: if you have the record expunged does that actually resolve answering "have you *ever* been arrested"?

My story was similar to yours in that I didn't actually attend a court hearing, I just arrived to the front desk and paid a $100 fine. From memory I must have signed some sort of good behaviour when I left the Police station, but unfortunately I have very few documents on hand. Did you just keep yours on hand over the years or were you able to source them?

@leics2 - appreciate your reply. I too assume I must have been found guilty/convicted, but as per above I'm very grey on the details. Yes, the offence was in the US for public intoxication which is the lowest misdemeanour.

The irony in all of this is if I want to go back to the USA it appears I could get an ESTA given the question is "Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?". In my personal case, I don't think a reasonable person would equate public intoxication to this - i'd be interested if you disagree nonetheless. In Mark's case then I can see how this is a bit more tricky given what's on paper.

Conversely, Canada's ETA question is indeed "Have you ever been arrested/convicted" and then asks to list the conviction, so this is a little more difficult on knowing whether applying for the ETA and answering truthfully would net a successful result for public intoxication which I'd assume is the lowest form of crime. I looked into "Overcoming Criminal Convictions" from your link leics2, but it seems overboard for just public intoxication? e.g. theft, manslaughter, dangerous driving, assault, DUI, possession.

[ Edit: Edited on 05-Feb-2020, 09:01 GMT by shunto ]

108. Posted by Miradax (Budding Member 8 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

Quoting shunto

Just to clarify, was the ACRO police certificate from home in the UK, or did you have to apply for one in the USA?

The ACRO is a UK police report I believe, but it's a global criminal search which is why it applies to visa's.

Quoting shunto

It's strange how you need to get fingerprints for the FBI for entering Canada. Was that because the arrest was in the USA?

Sorry, I can't answer this, but at the time of applying I don't think they would know where my offence took place so maybe it's a standard request.

Quoting shunto

if you have the record expunged does that actually resolve answering "have you *ever* been arrested"?

Yes! This is the best part - once you have your record expunged, my research says you can answer "no" to being arrested as there is no trace of your arrest (I think I would still have the fear when stood in line) Unfortunately, I have read that there's no guarantee that your record would be expunged after applying, but for smaller crimes, I would think this is achievable.

Quoting shunto

...unfortunately I have very few documents on hand. Did you just keep yours on hand over the years or were you able to source them?

My mum actually kept these files away over the years which was handy. I'm not sure it was essential to submit as much as I did. I think the police report and FBI check is the most important. I actually did have a court hearing and stood in-front of a judge - a lot of people on here can't understand how I don't have a conviction but I was issued a PBJ which is essentially a second chance - we hired a good lawyer!

Quoting shunto

The irony in all of this is if I want to go back to the USA it appears I could get an ESTA given the question is "Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?"

Maybe this has changed but my question was "Have you ever been convicted of a crime or even arrested" - regardless of crime or conviction.

Again, my advice would be to jump through the hoops - there's no way around the questions as it won't allow you to submit the application without the proper information. I tried to upload a letter like it suggests, that explains why you think you don't have to submit certain forms but you only receive an automated letter saying the information is insufficient. The Canadian border is definitely more relaxed than the US (being pulled aside on two occasions for questioning in the States) but I would hate for you to pay for an exciting trip only to be turned around when you land.

109. Posted by leics2 (Travel Guru 1103 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

>was the ACRO police certificate from home in the UK, or did you have to apply for one in the USA?

Only the UK provides ACRO certificates. Other jurisdictions use different acronyms/names for their police certificates.

>It's strange how you need to get fingerprints for the FBI for entering Canada. Was that because the arrest was in the USA?

The US and Canada share their criminal data, for obvious reasons (i.e. the land border).

>if you have the record expunged does that actually resolve answering "have you *ever* been arrested"?

Not automatically because you *were* arrested even if the record has since been 'expunged'. Paying a fine proves that you were found guilty/acknowledged your guilt and were convicted of the offence. The fact that the record is no longer visible does not mean the offence never happened.

The US does not recognise 'spent' convictions from other jurisdictions. Canada takes a slightly different approach, requiring you to be 'deemed rehabilitated'.

>I looked into "Overcoming Criminal Convictions" from your link leics2, but it seems overboard for just public intoxication?

Those are just examples.

The page linked below gives details about 'deemed rehabilitation', including documents needed if you choose to apply at a port of entry. It also says

>You do not have to apply to be deemed rehabilitated, but you should be sure you will qualify before you try to enter the country. Otherwise, you could be found inadmissible to Canada when you arrive at the border. It is in your best interest to be assessed by the Canadian embassy, high commission or consulate responsible for your area. This will help ensure you do not travel to Canada only to be refused entry or be subject to other enforcement action.<

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/inadmissibility/overcome-criminal-convictions/deemed-rehabilitation.html

>i'd be interested if you disagree nonetheless. (re ESTA)

The wording of the present ESTA question is difficult, just as it has been in all its different wordings since ESTA was first introduced. There is no definition of 'serious' in the public domain. You are ineligible to the US if you have committed a 'crime involving moral turpitude' but CIMT is a US legal concept. I doubt 'public intoxication' is regarded as a CIMT (the equivalent UK charge isn't) but nowadays the ESTA doesn't ask about CIMT anyway. As the offence was committed in the US, the info will be accessible to US border officers and if you tick 'No' on the ESTA it might result in additional questions on entry.

[ Edit: Edited on 05-Feb-2020, 10:03 GMT by leics2 ]

110. Posted by shunto (Budding Member 4 posts) 1w Star this if you like it!

Appreciate both of your responses guys. Safe travels in future :)

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